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Starboy · Oct 20, 2005, 12:43 am

Quote:

Quote by: LetThereBe

And what purpose have you set? There can be no ultimate purpose, for you are doomed to death. Any contribution you make to humanity will be forgotten, because ours is a species doomed to extinction. The universe itself shall decend to oblivion. You can have no purpose, Starboy.

So? Why must an ultimate purpose be something to be desired. You have no idea how that ultimate purpose will actually turn out. It is not as if people that die live to tell the tale.

Starboy

**Jack** · Oct 20, 2005, 12:44 am

Quote:

And what purpose have you set? There can be no ultimate purpose, for you are doomed to death. Any contribution you make to humanity will be forgotten, because ours is a species doomed to extinction. The universe itself shall decend to oblivion. You can have no purpose, Starboy.

You asked the question and gave a pretty good answer all in the same paragraph. Good job.

sergeant · Oct 20, 2005, 12:46 am

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

What? You don't want to go to heaven? But go ahead. I didn't say I had the power to do anything. But it is funny what an alergic reaction you are having. Watsamatter? Your faith not strong enough?

Starboy

Charges have been filed from less pal and you don't actually have to have the capability at the time...it is all in the words......like I said... I nor does anyone take well to such threats...Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I'm running around trying to end my life....I have children to take care of and I don't fear death like all of you suggest....I only have a wish to be a mother to my babies....I cannot do that if someone takes my life....so if death comes I will not fear....but I love my children and that means I want to remain hear with them.

LetThereBe · Oct 20, 2005, 12:46 am

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

So? Why must an ultimate purpose be something to be desired. You have no idea how that ultimate purpose will actually turn out. It is not as if people that die live to tell the tale.

Starboy

If faith were nothing more than a reason to exist, it would be worth believing in.

Starboy · Oct 20, 2005, 12:48 am

Quote:

Quote by: LetThereBe

If faith were nothing more than a reason to exist, it would be worth believing in.

If all you can find interesting in life that is worth pursuing is faith then that says a great deal about you.

Starboy

Starboy · Oct 20, 2005, 12:51 am

Quote:

Quote by: sergeant

Charges have been filed from less pal and you don't actually have to have the capability at the time...it is all in the words......like I said... I nor does anyone take well to such threats...Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I'm running around trying to end my life....I have children to take care of and I don't fear death like all of you suggest....I only have a wish to be a mother to my babies....I cannot do that if someone takes my life....so if death comes I will not fear....but I love my children and that means I want to remain hear with them.

So you don't think that the mother killed her babies because she wanted them to be in heaven?

Starboy

LetThereBe · Oct 20, 2005, 12:52 am

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

If all you can find interesting in life that is worth pursuing is faith then that says a great deal about you.

Starboy

As opposed to what? Knowledge that you won't be able to keep beyond the grave? A family legacy that will not remember you? Or are you a hellenist, and just seek sexual gratification and whatever other pleasures you can get?

Son of Belial · Oct 20, 2005, 01:04 am

Quote:

Quote by: Let There Be

And what purpose have you set? There can be no ultimate purpose, for you are doomed to death. Any contribution you make to humanity will be forgotten, because ours is a species doomed to extinction.

Even if we go to Heaven the things we do here will be forgotten, so it amounts to the same thing.

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True Christianity is anything but pleasant.

I admire your honesty.

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As opposed to what? Knowledge that you won't be able to keep beyond the grave? A family legacy that will not remember you? Or are you a hellenist, and just seek sexual gratification and whatever other pleasures you can get?

What family legacy? The world gets burned, good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell. There wouldn't be a legacy anyway. Knowledge? Of what? Playing harps and praising God for eternity?
And why is it that when Christians mention people enjoying life, the first thing they mention is sexual gratification. It's almost as if they need it.

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

You asked the question and gave a pretty good answer all in the same paragraph. Good job.

Starboy · Oct 20, 2005, 01:34 am

Quote:

Quote by: LetThereBe

As opposed to what? Knowledge that you won't be able to keep beyond the grave? A family legacy that will not remember you? Or are you a hellenist, and just seek sexual gratification and whatever other pleasures you can get?

As I learn more about life and its possiblities I change what I try to get out of it. And of course I am a human being. And as a human being I am chock full of social behavior. And much of that social behavior encourages me to care about my family, my country, my race and my world even when I am dead. I have no idea why some other third party purpose from some supernatural being that shares nothing with me in my existence would be of any interest to me at all. There are all sorts of third parties that have a purpose for me. So what? Every telemarketer in the world has a purpose for me. Every sales person. The world is chock full of third parties that have a purpose in mind for me. I could give a shit. That is their problem.

Starboy

**Sean** · Oct 20, 2005, 07:21 am

Starboy has been banned due to all of this. This latest episode is his final offense.

Flip Jackson · Oct 20, 2005, 01:05 pm

Son of Belial, you asked where I got my information on heaven. There is support for it in the Bible. I don't have time to look for it right now. Have to get back to work in a minute or two. Also, I am Mormon, so we have a record called the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible. We also believe in prophets in this day, which means we can gain even more knowledge, just like the prophets in the Bible. That's where we get our view of heaven. No we didn't just make it up. I will try to find some of those Bible sources when I get home.

Son of Belial · Oct 20, 2005, 01:30 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Flip Jackson

Son of Belial, you asked where I got my information on heaven. There is support for it in the Bible. I don't have time to look for it right now. Have to get back to work in a minute or two. Also, I am Mormon, so we have a record called the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible. We also believe in prophets in this day, which means we can gain even more knowledge, just like the prophets in the Bible. That's where we get our view of heaven. No we didn't just make it up. I will try to find some of those Bible sources when I get home.

Would be interested in seeing it, though I would certainly be more interested in scriptures that are from the "traditional" Bible and not from the Book of Mormon.

And when I said "made it up," I meant no disrespect, but you know a lot of denominations "fill in the blanks" when something is missing.

5010 · Oct 20, 2005, 01:44 pm

Evangelists sometimes try fear on me. "So if I'm wrong and you follow this path, it's not so bad for you. But if I'm right and you don't follow this path, do you really want to go to hell?"

But I know enough decent Christians so I don't consider the whole lot of them a bunch of bullies.

LetThereBe · Oct 20, 2005, 02:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Son of Belial

Even if we go to Heaven the things we do here will be forgotten, so it amounts to the same thing.

But my point was that the kingdom of God was the ultimate purpose, and without it there can be none.

Quote:

Quote by: Son of Belial

I admire your honesty.

Thanks.

Quote:

Quote by: Son of Belial

What family legacy? The world gets burned, good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell. There wouldn't be a legacy anyway. Knowledge? Of what? Playing harps and praising God for eternity?
And why is it that when Christians mention people enjoying life, the first thing they mention is sexual gratification. It's almost as if they need it.

Again, I was merely showing that all of those things were NOT part of an ultimate purpose, because an ultimate purpose cannot exist apart from the supernatural.

tinybear · Oct 20, 2005, 02:31 pm

Most religions demand obedience and loyalty to a superior being. And how is such obedience and loyalty ensured? By fear of course.

SNPete · Oct 20, 2005, 03:41 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

Most religions demand obedience and loyalty to a superior being. And how is such obedience and loyalty ensured? By fear of course.

1John 4:16-18

16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love

Son of Belial · Oct 20, 2005, 04:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SNPete

1John 4:16-18

16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love

Wow, contradiction... "Fear him, yes, fear him."

Sonart · Oct 20, 2005, 05:48 pm

Psalms 66:16 -- "Come and hear, all ye that fear God."

Psalms 111:10 -- "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding..."

Proverbs 9:10 -- "The first step to wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

Proverbs 8:13 -- "To fear the Lord is to hate evil."

Acts 10:34-35 -- "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."

Matthew 10:28 -- "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 1:49-51 -- "For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts."

Of course fear is a tool of religion. The idea of religion is to have rules of conduct in order to ensure a harmonious and cooperative society... rules that may conflict with our other very human instincts... lust, acquisitiveness, ambition, aggression, , etc. And it's not enough simply to have a temperal authority to enforce these rules, for even human authorities can be flawed. We need an unassailable, and implacable authority, one in which the punishment for breaking God's rules extends beyond even life. Now THAT'S authority.

.

Plasma Snake[D] · Oct 20, 2005, 06:00 pm

well fear and intimidation ALL boil down to submission and DOMINANCE

Flip Jackson · Oct 20, 2005, 09:13 pm

Son of Belial, I will give you a few examples. And another thing you might look for are other words for heaven. Paradise is used a few times to describe a portion of the afterlife.

I have to give a little background on the first one. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead on 1 Cirthians 15. In verses 40 through 42 we read that there are different bodies that have different glories. Then Paul says "so also is the resurrection of the dead." We are resurrected to diffrerent glories depending on how we lived our lives. In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul mentions a "third heaven," again showing that there isn't a heavn/hell line, but a variety of places we could end up. In John 14:2, Jesus speaks of "many mansions." You get the idea. I just wanted to give a few examples of the concept of more than one "degree" of heaven because it is against the norm.

1 John chaper 3 starts out talking about Christ's second coming. It says that those who are pure will become as God at the second coming. This can mean we either became like Him instantly or we learn to be like Him. We won't be blowing trumpets all day long. There are more important things to do.

Now, I might be able to find more, but I am kind of sleepy and having hard time with the whole alertness thing. Keep in mind that we don't rely solely on the Bible, but we do feel that the Bible supports our ideas and doctrines that come from the Book of Mormon and current prophets. That may sound cheesy or convenient to you, but doesn't it make sense that if God led a church with prophets in the past, He would continue to do so now?

Also, the Bible isn't exactly perfect. It has been retranslated and copied so many times. I would bet that at times people excluded descriptions of heaven and left the descriptions of Hell. Although fear is a horrible means of motivation, I am sure that early "Christian" leaders found it to be rather effective.

Sorry, if that wasn't what you were looking for, but that's what I have for you right now.

Oct 20, 2005, 07:21 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	Starboy has been banned due to all of this. This latest episode is his final offense. So it goes

Oct 20, 2005, 01:44 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
5010 mostly harmless Location: USA Posts: 1,284	Evangelists sometimes try fear on me. "So if I'm wrong and you follow this path, it's not so bad for you. But if I'm right and you don't follow this path, do you really want to go to hell?" But I know enough decent Christians so I don't consider the whole lot of them a bunch of bullies. - solo (my site)

Oct 20, 2005, 05:48 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
Sonart It's simply logical Location: San Diego Posts: 4,546	Psalms 66:16 -- "Come and hear, all ye that fear God." Psalms 111:10 -- "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding..." Proverbs 9:10 -- "The first step to wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." Proverbs 8:13 -- "To fear the Lord is to hate evil." Acts 10:34-35 -- "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." Matthew 10:28 -- "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Luke 1:49-51 -- "For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts." Of course fear is a tool of religion. The idea of religion is to have rules of conduct in order to ensure a harmonious and cooperative society... rules that may conflict with our other very human instincts... lust, acquisitiveness, ambition, aggression, , etc. And it's not enough simply to have a temperal authority to enforce these rules, for even human authorities can be flawed. We need an unassailable, and implacable authority, one in which the punishment for breaking God's rules extends beyond even life. Now THAT'S authority. . I don't suffer from insanity... I thoroughly enjoy it

Oct 20, 2005, 01:05 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Flip Jackson The Professor Location: Owasso, OK Posts: 648	Son of Belial, you asked where I got my information on heaven. There is support for it in the Bible. I don't have time to look for it right now. Have to get back to work in a minute or two. Also, I am Mormon, so we have a record called the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible. We also believe in prophets in this day, which means we can gain even more knowledge, just like the prophets in the Bible. That's where we get our view of heaven. No we didn't just make it up. I will try to find some of those Bible sources when I get home.

Oct 20, 2005, 02:31 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,085	Most religions demand obedience and loyalty to a superior being. And how is such obedience and loyalty ensured? By fear of course.

Oct 20, 2005, 06:00 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
Plasma Snake[D] Cause for Concern Location: Planet Earth Posts: 664	well fear and intimidation ALL boil down to submission and DOMINANCE

Oct 20, 2005, 09:13 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Flip Jackson The Professor Location: Owasso, OK Posts: 648	Son of Belial, I will give you a few examples. And another thing you might look for are other words for heaven. Paradise is used a few times to describe a portion of the afterlife. I have to give a little background on the first one. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead on 1 Cirthians 15. In verses 40 through 42 we read that there are different bodies that have different glories. Then Paul says "so also is the resurrection of the dead." We are resurrected to diffrerent glories depending on how we lived our lives. In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul mentions a "third heaven," again showing that there isn't a heavn/hell line, but a variety of places we could end up. In John 14:2, Jesus speaks of "many mansions." You get the idea. I just wanted to give a few examples of the concept of more than one "degree" of heaven because it is against the norm. 1 John chaper 3 starts out talking about Christ's second coming. It says that those who are pure will become as God at the second coming. This can mean we either became like Him instantly or we learn to be like Him. We won't be blowing trumpets all day long. There are more important things to do. Now, I might be able to find more, but I am kind of sleepy and having hard time with the whole alertness thing. Keep in mind that we don't rely solely on the Bible, but we do feel that the Bible supports our ideas and doctrines that come from the Book of Mormon and current prophets. That may sound cheesy or convenient to you, but doesn't it make sense that if God led a church with prophets in the past, He would continue to do so now? Also, the Bible isn't exactly perfect. It has been retranslated and copied so many times. I would bet that at times people excluded descriptions of heaven and left the descriptions of Hell. Although fear is a horrible means of motivation, I am sure that early "Christian" leaders found it to be rather effective. Sorry, if that wasn't what you were looking for, but that's what I have for you right now.