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mlingley · Mar 6, 2004, 04:27 am

In the October 29, 2001, article "Mind Control in the New Kind of War", Jan Baughman writes

"In response to the 9-11 attacks, an expert on cults and mind control, Steven Hassan, warned of the danger of jumping to evil conclusions. In his statement he explains the indoctrination that can lead an individual to join a cult, or to become a suicide bomber. Part of the cult mentality is that people see things in terms of black and white. Everything gets reduced to extremes: belief of 'good versus evil' and 'us versus them.' Cult members are indoctrinated to exercise strict blind obedience to the charismatic figure atop the pyramid structure of their group. They are in a form of trance. Basically it's mind control.' Hassan described the cult-like nature of the attackers, but what about the behavior of the rest of us?"

Here is the full article: http://www.swans.com/library/art7/jeb105.html

I find this kind of absolute good vs. absolute evil mentallity very dangerous. When president Bush says stuff like "This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil" and talks about an "axis of evil" it makes me wonder.

Impenitent · Mar 6, 2004, 04:31 am

absolutely dangerous? or only relatively dangerous?

right/wrong, good/evil... call them every vile name you like...

mind control?

it is easier to believe than to think...

Mia · Mar 6, 2004, 05:14 am

Oh, yes, Bush is trying to convince us to believe in the absolute evil of any country that doesn't agree with him.

Syria is a good example - we have no actual evil to ascribe to them. But he's doing it anyway. They are at war with Israel for damn fine reasons, but this is against our interests, hence they are almost in his axis.

Why else is he after them more so than the countries IN the ACTUAL axis?

Sandy · Mar 6, 2004, 08:17 am

Bush reacted to 9-11 exactly the way I feared he would. When he was campaigning for office, it was obvious that he was obsessed by his religion. It is natural for all of these zealots to set a mission to have everyone follow them into the kingdom of heaven. Bush believed he was chosen by God to save the world. It was a return to the Crusades all over again.

We have a lot of members of the religious right in America and they never involved themselves in politics much before 1992 but by 2000 they were in full force and their main agenda was to make America a Christian Nation. The emotions of the masses never took a look at the background of Bush or how he has used his religion to get is arse out of hot water in the past. He is a typical Elmer Gantry out to promote himself using any method he can find.

Had he been a normal American man, he would have immediately thrown out his FBI, CIA and INS leaders and after discovering that Osama Bin Laden was the head of the Islamic terrorists gone in and had him destroyed immediately! But he couldn't do it because his agenda was to bring America under the bible instead of the constitution. After a feeble attempt at getting OBL, he decided to take out Saddam. He used all the lies and subterfuge possible and did it but not before making many other sovereign countries very upset. Would they be next?

He was born into a family of One World Order people and every move Bush has made has been to destroy American Sovereignty and become the world leader, some voice in his head told him to be. Hell, so did Hitler!

I was begging my Republican Clubs not to back a born-again Christian for President because his every move would be diverted by his faith. I don't hate Christians but from reading the history of the churches (all of them) it has been proven that they respect no other law but what they interpreted to be the truth. Let them live their lives around this interpretation but not the United States of America.

Islamic terrorists are the enemy of American freedoms but all over the infernet I read that Satan is now involved in our world conflicts and even behind the desire for same sex marriages. Well, this is the end of America if we are allowed to believe that God sent Satan to the world just to be destroyed by Saint George the Bush.

The true evil lies within the brain of Bush! Get him out of our government and get our country back under Constitutional control.

Spyder Jerusalem · Mar 6, 2004, 12:46 pm

Here here!
Excellent!
A commendation is in order!

Mar 6, 2004, 12:48 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The true evil lies within the brain of Bush! Get him out of our government and get our country back under Constitutional control. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

ive always found people who speak of the constitution often forget that responsibilty comes with rights

Automatic Nate · Mar 6, 2004, 01:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sandy,)
I don't hate Christians but from reading the history of the churches (all of them) it has been proven that they respect no other law but what they interpreted to be the truth. Let them live their lives around this interpretation but not the United States of America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
A couple quick questions:
1) "[W]hat they interpreted to be the truth" is an awfully broad category, and I would imagine that, simpliciter, would be a goal of government--after all, if folks discerned that politicians were leading the country according to things they deemed untrue (cooked books regarding WMD, misleading statements concerning federal budgets, etc.), we would rightly be outraged. Could you clarify what sorts of "truth" you have in mind here?
2) Should avoidance of anything Christian or resembling Christianity be an goal for secular government? For instance, care for the poor is arguably a Christian ethical norm, but it also seems to be a good end for a government to pursue. What particular parts of Christian (or Jewish or Islamic or Hindu etc. etc.) ethics and ways of life might still be compatible with federal government?

Sandy · Mar 6, 2004, 04:03 pm

The truth of adherence to the Constitution giving equal rights and freedoms to every American citizen. Basically I want the government out of our social and personal lives. We have a real busybody in power at this time and in the first year of his office he handed faith based grants for the churches to use. What the hell are the churches doing with their enormous wealth that they need their hands in the public till? My kids attended and I worked for a Christian Private school for years and we never accepted a penny of government money because of the mandates that soon followed. Our freedoms to teach our own curriculum would have been trashed had we taken the money.

Then Bush came up with a plan to get all single mothers married. The government will set up television programs to show these women that having a husband is better for the economy. Then we mustn't forget the ban on gays marrying! None of this is legally under the authority of the Federal Government. The truth is that Bush wants a benevolent dictatorship that we all will be taxed to death paying for.

Mar 6, 2004, 04:10 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The truth is that Bush wants a benevolent dictatorship that we all will be taxed to death paying for.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
christian wives and mothers should never be allowed online

Samildanach · Mar 9, 2004, 11:12 am

As far as I'm concerned it was and still is evil vs evil.

castille · Mar 10, 2004, 08:03 am

Its not evil vs evil. Its good vs good.

Bush is doing what he percieves is good for his nation.

Osama is doing what he percieves as good for his heaven (he gets 72 virgins).

Samildanach · Mar 10, 2004, 08:13 am

No, its spy vs spy.

AnonT · Mar 10, 2004, 08:52 am

It's evil that thinks it's good vs evil that thinks it's good. I'm sure both sides have spies, though....

Samildanach · Mar 10, 2004, 10:09 am

Soooo...its insane evil then.....

insane evil vs insane evil.....interesting

Mar 26, 2004, 02:11 am

Mia Syria is not at war with Israel. Syria has been harboring terrorist and terrorist training camps for decades. That is why Bush is putting the screw to Syria, not Israel.
I don't buy this Absolute Good/Evil philosophy. The entire construct is man made in order to better teach people how to behave in public. I agree it can be dangerous and aid unscrupulous individuals in indoctrination of weaker minds. We see it in the terrorist organizations and fundamentalist churches worldwide.

toys · Mar 26, 2004, 03:06 am

All minds are indoctrinated, otherwise, how'd we speak a language?!

Bush needs to demonstrate our enemy as the ultimate evil, otherwise the people wouldn't be supportive of him. I'm not so sure that which we refer to as trance is any more of an illusion for reality than we all perceive everyday. And as far as blind obdience, it isn't quite the actual military, but it is ideal. All we need is a leader with genuine ethos, logos, and pathos (it almost sounds like I'm summoning the second coming -- or talking about Aristotle). Like any, propaganda isn't a bad word -- that nature depends on the speaker. It's all in how you use it, not merely what you say. Survival is merely a manipulation of one's situation. Bush, like any leader, wants to remain in office, and of course, not have massive protests.

(cliche warning) You can't please everybody all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time, otherwise, ya'll jus havta purswade 'em. First, change their attitude, then, if your lucky, they'll decide to change their own beliefs, and eventually, hopefully, your message becomes their value. We all behave according to nurture (individual nature) and nature (environment), and as long as we continue to get what we give, how can we possibly expect any more!? It's all a matter of perception. Bush believes he's as good as terrorist think they, themselves, are. First, we are what we were, then we are what we learn, and finally, we jus ain't, no mo'. How could we possibly know, muchless be expected to do, any better?!

Oh, and no, there ain't never no absolute -- good luck figuring that one out.

Mia · Mar 26, 2004, 03:17 am

Syria only "harbors" groups that work against Israel, they help us in capturing Fundamentalist terror groups.

Mar 26, 2004, 05:48 pm

Oh they only "Harbor" terrorist groups. They only help the US capture terrorist NOW because there are a few US troops next door in Iraq. Syria has been also sponsoring terrorist groups for decades, and you can't deny that. These terrorist have operated in areas farther afield than just Israel.
Why are you such an apologist for these groups?

TheColdTruth · Apr 9, 2004, 10:18 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
find this kind of absolute good vs. absolute evil mentallity very dangerous. When president Bush says stuff like "This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil" and talks about an "axis of evil" it makes me wonder.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, the fact that things obfuscate what is good and evil is what's really dangerous. When evil isn't what's known inherently, but what's told to you by the president, is when you should worry. The only thing you have to fear by a black and white mentality is that if they're giving people what they deserve, and you're evil, you just might have to be ready to meet your mythological maker.

peace_hawk · Apr 9, 2004, 11:26 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sandy,)
Bush reacted to 9-11 exactly the way I feared he would. When he was campaigning for office, it was obvious that he was obsessed by his religion. It is natural for all of these zealots to set a mission to have everyone follow them into the kingdom of heaven. Bush believed he was chosen by God to save the world. It was a return to the Crusades all over again.

I don't hate Christians but from reading the history of the churches (all of them) it has been proven that they respect no other law but what they interpreted to be the truth. Let them live their lives around this interpretation but not the United States of America.

Islamic terrorists are the enemy of American freedoms...

The true evil lies within the brain of Bush! Get him out of our government and get our country back under Constitutional control.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

YES! I see it so clearly now! The way to have a truly free country is to take away the vote from everyone who doesn't think just like Sandy! Got a differnet value system, NO VOTE FOR YOU! Thank you for the insight Sandy or is it Chairman Mao?

Mar 6, 2004, 04:31 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	absolutely dangerous? or only relatively dangerous? right/wrong, good/evil... call them every vile name you like... mind control? it is easier to believe than to think... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 6, 2004, 05:14 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Oh, yes, Bush is trying to convince us to believe in the absolute evil of any country that doesn't agree with him. Syria is a good example - we have no actual evil to ascribe to them. But he's doing it anyway. They are at war with Israel for damn fine reasons, but this is against our interests, hence they are almost in his axis. Why else is he after them more so than the countries IN the ACTUAL axis? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 6, 2004, 12:46 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Spyder Jerusalem Molten Ash Location: The City, scoring dope. Posts: 31	Here here! Excellent! A commendation is in order! "A Kenyan man once said to me, 'You can get used to anything when money's involved.' He used to stick mice up his ass for twenty bucks a time."

Mar 6, 2004, 12:48 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
gecko Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The true evil lies within the brain of Bush! Get him out of our government and get our country back under Constitutional control. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> ive always found people who speak of the constitution often forget that responsibilty comes with rights

Mar 6, 2004, 01:59 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sandy,) I don't hate Christians but from reading the history of the churches (all of them) it has been proven that they respect no other law but what they interpreted to be the truth. Let them live their lives around this interpretation but not the United States of America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> A couple quick questions: 1) "[W]hat they interpreted to be the truth" is an awfully broad category, and I would imagine that, simpliciter, would be a goal of government--after all, if folks discerned that politicians were leading the country according to things they deemed untrue (cooked books regarding WMD, misleading statements concerning federal budgets, etc.), we would rightly be outraged. Could you clarify what sorts of "truth" you have in mind here? 2) Should avoidance of anything Christian or resembling Christianity be an goal for secular government? For instance, care for the poor is arguably a Christian ethical norm, but it also seems to be a good end for a government to pursue. What particular parts of Christian (or Jewish or Islamic or Hindu etc. etc.) ethics and ways of life might still be compatible with federal government? "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost

Mar 6, 2004, 04:27 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	In the October 29, 2001, article "Mind Control in the New Kind of War", Jan Baughman writes "In response to the 9-11 attacks, an expert on cults and mind control, Steven Hassan, warned of the danger of jumping to evil conclusions. In his statement he explains the indoctrination that can lead an individual to join a cult, or to become a suicide bomber. Part of the cult mentality is that people see things in terms of black and white. Everything gets reduced to extremes: belief of 'good versus evil' and 'us versus them.' Cult members are indoctrinated to exercise strict blind obedience to the charismatic figure atop the pyramid structure of their group. They are in a form of trance. Basically it's mind control.' Hassan described the cult-like nature of the attackers, but what about the behavior of the rest of us?" Here is the full article: http://www.swans.com/library/art7/jeb105.html I find this kind of absolute good vs. absolute evil mentallity very dangerous. When president Bush says stuff like "This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil" and talks about an "axis of evil" it makes me wonder.

Mar 6, 2004, 08:17 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Sandy Igneous Magma Posts: 238	Bush reacted to 9-11 exactly the way I feared he would. When he was campaigning for office, it was obvious that he was obsessed by his religion. It is natural for all of these zealots to set a mission to have everyone follow them into the kingdom of heaven. Bush believed he was chosen by God to save the world. It was a return to the Crusades all over again. We have a lot of members of the religious right in America and they never involved themselves in politics much before 1992 but by 2000 they were in full force and their main agenda was to make America a Christian Nation. The emotions of the masses never took a look at the background of Bush or how he has used his religion to get is arse out of hot water in the past. He is a typical Elmer Gantry out to promote himself using any method he can find. Had he been a normal American man, he would have immediately thrown out his FBI, CIA and INS leaders and after discovering that Osama Bin Laden was the head of the Islamic terrorists gone in and had him destroyed immediately! But he couldn't do it because his agenda was to bring America under the bible instead of the constitution. After a feeble attempt at getting OBL, he decided to take out Saddam. He used all the lies and subterfuge possible and did it but not before making many other sovereign countries very upset. Would they be next? He was born into a family of One World Order people and every move Bush has made has been to destroy American Sovereignty and become the world leader, some voice in his head told him to be. Hell, so did Hitler! I was begging my Republican Clubs not to back a born-again Christian for President because his every move would be diverted by his faith. I don't hate Christians but from reading the history of the churches (all of them) it has been proven that they respect no other law but what they interpreted to be the truth. Let them live their lives around this interpretation but not the United States of America. Islamic terrorists are the enemy of American freedoms but all over the infernet I read that Satan is now involved in our world conflicts and even behind the desire for same sex marriages. Well, this is the end of America if we are allowed to believe that God sent Satan to the world just to be destroyed by Saint George the Bush. The true evil lies within the brain of Bush! Get him out of our government and get our country back under Constitutional control.

Mar 6, 2004, 04:03 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Sandy Igneous Magma Posts: 238	The truth of adherence to the Constitution giving equal rights and freedoms to every American citizen. Basically I want the government out of our social and personal lives. We have a real busybody in power at this time and in the first year of his office he handed faith based grants for the churches to use. What the hell are the churches doing with their enormous wealth that they need their hands in the public till? My kids attended and I worked for a Christian Private school for years and we never accepted a penny of government money because of the mandates that soon followed. Our freedoms to teach our own curriculum would have been trashed had we taken the money. Then Bush came up with a plan to get all single mothers married. The government will set up television programs to show these women that having a husband is better for the economy. Then we mustn't forget the ban on gays marrying! None of this is legally under the authority of the Federal Government. The truth is that Bush wants a benevolent dictatorship that we all will be taxed to death paying for.

Mar 6, 2004, 04:10 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
gecko Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The truth is that Bush wants a benevolent dictatorship that we all will be taxed to death paying for.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> christian wives and mothers should never be allowed online

Mar 9, 2004, 11:12 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	As far as I'm concerned it was and still is evil vs evil. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Mar 10, 2004, 08:03 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Its not evil vs evil. Its good vs good. Bush is doing what he percieves is good for his nation. Osama is doing what he percieves as good for his heaven (he gets 72 virgins). Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Mar 10, 2004, 08:13 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	No, its spy vs spy. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Mar 10, 2004, 08:52 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	It's evil that thinks it's good vs evil that thinks it's good. I'm sure both sides have spies, though....

Mar 10, 2004, 10:09 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Soooo...its insane evil then..... insane evil vs insane evil.....interesting I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Mar 26, 2004, 02:11 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Mia Syria is not at war with Israel. Syria has been harboring terrorist and terrorist training camps for decades. That is why Bush is putting the screw to Syria, not Israel. I don't buy this Absolute Good/Evil philosophy. The entire construct is man made in order to better teach people how to behave in public. I agree it can be dangerous and aid unscrupulous individuals in indoctrination of weaker minds. We see it in the terrorist organizations and fundamentalist churches worldwide.

Mar 26, 2004, 03:06 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
toys Sedimentary Rock Location: aqui` Posts: 14	All minds are indoctrinated, otherwise, how'd we speak a language?! Bush needs to demonstrate our enemy as the ultimate evil, otherwise the people wouldn't be supportive of him. I'm not so sure that which we refer to as trance is any more of an illusion for reality than we all perceive everyday. And as far as blind obdience, it isn't quite the actual military, but it is ideal. All we need is a leader with genuine ethos, logos, and pathos (it almost sounds like I'm summoning the second coming -- or talking about Aristotle). Like any, propaganda isn't a bad word -- that nature depends on the speaker. It's all in how you use it, not merely what you say. Survival is merely a manipulation of one's situation. Bush, like any leader, wants to remain in office, and of course, not have massive protests. (cliche warning) You can't please everybody all the time, but you can please some of the people, some of the time, otherwise, ya'll jus havta purswade 'em. First, change their attitude, then, if your lucky, they'll decide to change their own beliefs, and eventually, hopefully, your message becomes their value. We all behave according to nurture (individual nature) and nature (environment), and as long as we continue to get what we give, how can we possibly expect any more!? It's all a matter of perception. Bush believes he's as good as terrorist think they, themselves, are. First, we are what we were, then we are what we learn, and finally, we jus ain't, no mo'. How could we possibly know, muchless be expected to do, any better?! Oh, and no, there ain't never no absolute -- good luck figuring that one out. TFM

Mar 26, 2004, 03:17 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Syria only "harbors" groups that work against Israel, they help us in capturing Fundamentalist terror groups. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 26, 2004, 05:48 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Oh they only "Harbor" terrorist groups. They only help the US capture terrorist NOW because there are a few US troops next door in Iraq. Syria has been also sponsoring terrorist groups for decades, and you can't deny that. These terrorist have operated in areas farther afield than just Israel. Why are you such an apologist for these groups?

Apr 9, 2004, 10:18 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
TheColdTruth Alive Location: Sandusky, Ohio Posts: 100	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by find this kind of absolute good vs. absolute evil mentallity very dangerous. When president Bush says stuff like "This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil" and talks about an "axis of evil" it makes me wonder.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, the fact that things obfuscate what is good and evil is what's really dangerous. When evil isn't what's known inherently, but what's told to you by the president, is when you should worry. The only thing you have to fear by a black and white mentality is that if they're giving people what they deserve, and you're evil, you just might have to be ready to meet your mythological maker. If it works, and it's stupid, it's not stupid.

Apr 9, 2004, 11:26 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
peace_hawk Molten Ash Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 73	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sandy,) Bush reacted to 9-11 exactly the way I feared he would. When he was campaigning for office, it was obvious that he was obsessed by his religion. It is natural for all of these zealots to set a mission to have everyone follow them into the kingdom of heaven. Bush believed he was chosen by God to save the world. It was a return to the Crusades all over again. I don't hate Christians but from reading the history of the churches (all of them) it has been proven that they respect no other law but what they interpreted to be the truth. Let them live their lives around this interpretation but not the United States of America. Islamic terrorists are the enemy of American freedoms... The true evil lies within the brain of Bush! Get him out of our government and get our country back under Constitutional control.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> YES! I see it so clearly now! The way to have a truly free country is to take away the vote from everyone who doesn't think just like Sandy! Got a differnet value system, NO VOTE FOR YOU! Thank you for the insight Sandy or is it Chairman Mao? "What you call facts depends upon the theory you bring to it." - A. Einstein Brother Dan.com