the spectrum of christianity

[RickSp]

Quote by: LetThereBe Please, do not misunderstand me. I do not blame the Jews for the death of Christ as either a race or as a religion. It was the leaders in the synagogues who convinced the people against Jesus. Regardless, the people chose to release a known murderer rather than the blasphemer that they saw Christ to be.

At least that is how the Christians tell the story.

[Jack]

I think the fact that many of his disciples were willing to die for his name is a testimony to the miracles and reserection that they witnessed.

Many died believing in Jim Jones and David Koresh, too. Does this validate the words of those two?

Why else would they die for a known lie?

No one has said that they knew it to be a lie. They may have believed it all, but that doesn't say much about anything other than their beliefs.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Isherwood Many died believing in Jim Jones and David Koresh, too. Does this validate the words of those two? No one has said that they knew it to be a lie. They may have believed it all, but that doesn't say much about anything other than their beliefs.

So do you contest that they believed in His miracles? Were they hallucinating, hypnotized, drunk? Or how about the resurrection? Were they dreaming when they thought they saw him after the crucifiction? Keep in mind this is not just one individual, but many who came to this concesus. And they were willing to die for it.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Hmm...They didn't really know he was a sham. They didn't want him not to be a sham. So they convinced themselves he wasn't.

But what about the miracles and resurection they claimed to witness? They were willing to die for it.

[Jack]

Have none of you ever seen David Blaine? Care to tell me how he does what he does? Magic and sleight of hand are centuries old.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: bishop unlike a lot of people who professed good things, jesus really did live them. even when faced with torture and a brutal death, he did not give up on his faith.

According to the myths, anyway.

But what about the miracles and resurection they claimed to witness? They were willing to die for it.

Again, according to the mythology. A can write a story saying that Mandrake the Magician died in a battle with Kooky the Koala, master of evil, and came back from the dead leading an army of zombies and then flying up into the constellation Orion, and then write "fifteen apostles of Mandrake died for their belief in Mandrake."

It doesn't change the fact that I just made it all up.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Isherwood Have none of you ever seen David Blaine? Care to tell me how he does what he does? Magic and sleight of hand are centuries old.

I have not seen David Blaine, but the miracles the disciples witnessed were certainly more than sleight of hand. Even his enemies, the pharisees, did not deny the miracles, they just said it was the work of demons. How can one manage to feed 5,000 people with sleight of hand? How did one manage to heal blind and lame beggars, who everyone would know have been begging there for years, and suddenly got up and walked. How would sleight of hand rise one from the dead? Or did He fake his death? Just hung there and acted dead..... or put a fake body up when no one was looking. But then again, a roman soldier stabbed him in the saide. Maybe an identical twin. Thats gotta be it. Best explanation. That Jesus was a tricky fellow, he sure duped all those disciples.

[Jack]

Another point that christians seldom agree on is suggested by bishop's comment. All we know of Jesus' life is in the gospels. What happened to him from the age of two to 33? What was he doing? Where was he?

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: LetThereBe I have not seen David Blaine, but the miracles the disciples witnessed were certainly more than sleight of hand. Even his enemies, the pharisees, did not deny the miracles, they just said it was the work of demons. How can one manage to feed 5,000 people with sleight of hand? How did one manage to heal blind and lame beggars, who everyone would know have been begging there for years, and suddenly got up and walked. How would sleight of hand rise one from the dead? Or did He fake his death? Just hung there and acted dead..... or put a fake body up when no one was looking. But then again, a roman soldier stabbed him in the saide. Maybe an identical twin. Thats gotta be it. Best explanation. That Jesus was a tricky fellow, he sure duped all those disciples.

Those gospel writers were tricky fellows, writing down mythology, they sure duped all those Christians.

The Elder Edda says Odin was stabbed with a spear, lashed to a tree and died, and came back. Must be true, right? So many believed it.

[Jack]

LetThereBe, you're using the stories of the bible to substantiate other stories in the bible. Circular arguments are invalid. Are there any non-biblical references to those "miracles"?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Son of Belial Those gospel writers were tricky fellows, writing down mythology, they sure duped all those Christians. The Elder Edda says Odin was stabbed with a spear, lashed to a tree and died, and came back. Must be true, right? So many believed it.

lol, we have a lot more evidence for the apostles.


Yet, history reveals that not one of these men, who knew Jesus personally, ever denied their testimony about Him despite the threat and reality of imminent death. This proves to any fair-minded observer that these men possessed an absolute unshakable personal knowledge about the truth of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Each of the apostles were called upon to pay the ultimate price to prove their faith in Jesus, affirming with their life's blood that Jesus was the true Messiah, the Son of God, and the only hope of salvation for a sinful humanity.

Most of our information about the deaths of the apostles is derived from early church traditions. While tradition is unreliable as to small details, it very seldom contains outright inventions. Eusebius, the most important of the early church historians wrote his history of the early church in A.D. 325. He wrote, "The apostles and disciples of the Savior scattered over the whole world, preached the Gospel everywhere." The Church historian Schumacher researched the lives of the apostles and recounted the history of their martyrdoms.


Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged by idolatrous priests on an olive tree in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ was crucified.

James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Jesus went to during his Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

Thomas was stabbed with a spear (lance) in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.

Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.




Now, I do not doubt that some of those are exagerations. As the author mentions, early church histories are not always trust worthy as to the details. However, there is NO question that many Christians were martyred by the Romans during the early church. Even if for some reason you think the orgional apostles escaped death, it is historical fact that they faced persecution and WOULD have faced death if caught. And what would they have to gain for their belief vs the potential loss?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Isherwood LetThereBe, you're using the stories of the bible to substantiate other stories in the bible. Circular arguments are invalid. Are there any non-biblical references to those "miracles"?

Do you contest that the apostles existed, or that they faced persecution as a result in the belief that Jesus was the messiah? If not, then the fact that they were willing to suffer as a result of such miracles, especially the resurection, is evidence.

[Jack]

A willingness to die for what you believe does not validate that for which you are dying. It only speaks to the depth and sincerity of your belief.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Isherwood A willingness to die for what you believe does not validate that for which you are dying. It only speaks to the depth and sincerity of your belief.

Again this begs the question then, how were they mistaken? Could sleight of hand actually have produced the resurection? Or were they dreaming/confused/drunk? Keep in mind, many witnesses to this event, not one. At least many who were willing to face persecution for it based on their supposed witnessing of the event.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: LetThereBe Again this begs the question then, how were they mistaken? Could sleight of hand actually have produced the resurection? Or were they dreaming/confused/drunk? Keep in mind, many witnesses to this event, not one. At least many who were willing to face persecution for it based on their supposed witnessing of the event.

Where are all of these witnesses? Outside of the Bible there is not one record saying there was a magical resurrecting Jew. As for being drunk, back in those days people didn't know which mushrooms were healthy.

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Son of Belial Where are all of these witnesses? Outside of the Bible there is not one record saying there was a magical resurrecting Jew. As for being drunk, back in those days people didn't know which mushrooms were healthy.

So you say that the apostles did not exist? Or that all of them were honestly drugged up (all of them at once mind you) enough to think they all saw the same person saying the same thing to them? And they were willing to die (or at the very minimum face persecution, and the persecution is a historical fact, as we have records of Roman persecution of Christians) for said drugged up fantasy.

[Jack]

Perhaps. It's certainly no less believable than presuming miracles really happened and Jesus really was god made flesh.

[bishop]

wow... talk about off-topic!

good job guys.

[PatrickHenry]

bishop, that's why I so seldom respond in the Religion forum. You asked a question about the varieties of beliefs a christian might have, but the anti-god crowd can't keep their grubby paws off the thread. So it goes waaay off topic before you get your question answered.

I have already talked about this at length: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/thread4009.html so I won't say anything further here...

[Jack]

the point of this spiel is this - are there any faith-related requirements are there in order to be accepted as a christian? and if so, what are they?

Our discussion touches on your original question. It would seem a faith in the bible and the stories contained in it are required to be accepted as a christian, at least by those posting here.
Did we ever ask, "accepted as a christian" by whom?