Christians: Free will vs predestination

[LetThereBe]

I was just wondering how many Christians believe in free will vs. predestination

Those who believe in free will, I ask to read Romans 9

If that scripture is valid, how can free will exist?

[zynner]

Quote by: LetThereBe I was just wondering how many Christians believe in free will vs. predestination Those who believe in free will, I ask to read Romans 9 If that scripture is valid, how can free will exist?

How can free will exist?

Did you have any choice in asking that question?

~ zynner

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: zynner How can free will exist? Did you have any choice in asking that question? ~ zynner

I don't know. A very good question. I believe in the very least that the illusion of free will exists. What a beautiful gift from God that would be!

[zynner]

Quote by: LetThereBe I believe in the very least that the illusion of free will exists.

It can't be both. It's either real or just an illusion.

If everything is predetermined, then nothing matters. All answers you get will be predetermined. Any action you take will be predetermined. Nothing you say, think, or do will ever matter because it is all predetermined. If I ask you a question, your answer will be predetermined.

It becomes such a meaningless concept that it is not worth discussing. If it is true, then nothing matters. If it is not true, then forget about warped ideas like that and get on with real ones.

~ zynner

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: zynner It can't be both. It's either real or just an illusion. If everything is predetermined, then nothing matters. All answers you get will be predetermined. Any action you take will be predetermined. Nothing you say, think, or do will ever matter because it is all predetermined. If I ask you a question, your answer will be predetermined. It becomes such a meaningless concept that it is not worth discussing. If it is true, then nothing matters. If it is not true, then forget about warped ideas like that and get on with real ones. ~ zynner

Ha, I find it a very interesting topic, and one worth discussing. It is directly tied into the authority of scripture, hence my invitation for Christians and mentioning Romans 9. If you don't believe Romans 9 holds any authority there is no point in replying on this thread, so don't bother.
However, most Christian's both believe in the authority of scripture AND believe in freewill, which is something difficult to fit with Romans 9.

Anyhow, personally, I believe under normal circumstances God allows humans a degree of freedom and choice. At the same time, I think Romans 9 indicates there are special circumstances where free will is suspended, as with pharoah.

[SteveA]

If our lives are predetermined, then so are the effects of our will. So we're predetermined to live by the choices we make. Living with free will is inescapable

If instead the future is undetermined and influenced by our decisions, then we can only experience the future as it reveals itself, affected by our decisions. In this case, living life with the effects of our free will, will be inescapable.

So do we live with free will or not? If you're free to make that decision, then there's no need to ask the question, as you've just answered it. And if you aren't free to make that decision, then there's still no need to ask the question, because the decision isn't yours to make.

[Starboy]

The term "freewill" as it is often interpreted is an oxymoron. If there is a will then a choice is already favored and it can't be called free. The only circumstance where a "free" choice can be made is by a random mechanism such as the roll of a fair die or the toss of a fair coin. In that case the choice is made freely in as much as there is a choice to be made. The only curcumstance where the idea of a "freewill" makes any sense is in regards to an external agent imposing a choice on a will that would make a different choice. There is still nothing explicity "free" about the actual choice if a will is involved, external or not.

Starboy

[Dirty Name]

Starboy's flawed opinion is amusing at best. For even if I might favor a particular course of action, I still retain the right to change my mind, to change my "favor." But regardless, that is not the point of this thread...

Getting back to the issue of reconciling Romans 9 with those Christians who would believe in "free will" vs. "predetermination," I would answer that any Calvanistic reading of Romans 9 results in the horrific conclusion that we have very little choice in whether or not we believe in God, can be saved, and can go to heaven (or hell).

Thank God that the Calvanistic viewpoint seems to be a bit flawed in my humble opinion, shared by all those who believe in Free Will.

The good news is that there is no conflict between Romans Chapter 9 and Free Will, because that chapter is quite specifically talking about the Nation of Israel, and God's grace and mercy upon it.

I won't pretend to be a Biblical Scholar, instead, I will just point you to a Powerpoint Presentation used in a sermon that explains this passage in a straightforward, analytical way:

http://media.xenos.org/teachings/rom...rom9-1-ppt.zip

I look forward to any responses this provokes.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Dirty Name Starboy's flawed opinion is amusing at best. For even if I might favor a particular course of action, I still retain the right to change my mind, to change my "favor." But regardless, that is not the point of this thread...

That was my point regarding the second version of "freewill". However if you have a will then is it not as if you are going to choose something your will doesn't want. A classic example is based on the character Spock from the TV show. Spock is a creature of perfect logic. His will is dictated by the results of his logic. He will not make the illogical choice. He can't. In that regard his choice is not free. However if there is no external will forcing him to choose the illogical choice then in that regard his "will" is free to make its logical determination.

Glad I can amuse you. You have no idea how much laughter you have given me when you were being completely serious. Thanks for the chuckles.

Starboy

[gr8ridejester]

The two go hand in hand. I know that sounds funny, however God has plans for all of us. It is the choices we make (free will) that leads us down a different path or destination. The destination is determined by the choices we make. For example, John Smith wakes up one morning and desides to take the bus. A speeding driver runs a stop sign and slams into the bus causing a terrible accident. John becomes paralized from the waste down from injuries from the accident. John's choice to ride the bus lead him to his destination of being paralized.

Also, you must take into consideration other people's free will. In the example above, the choice of the driver, who hit the bus which caused the accident, made a choice to drive wrecklessly and speed. His choice effected the outcome, not only for his life, but for all of the other passengers on the bus he hit. Thus, causing a new, yet predetermined, path for each person involved.

Keep in mind, had John decided to drive himself to work that day, his destination probably would have been different. He might have never gotten into that accident and been paralized. So, God gives us the ability to make choices. It's through these choices, a predetermined path begins and, eventually, leads us to our destination. Again, through our choices, we affect another's destination as well. With this, we learn consequence and responsibility...cause and effect.

[Samildanach]

Well the point is if you don't actually know your will is predetermined then you have no choice really but to act as though it isn't.

[Boetie]

There is no free will. You turn your head, you see someone, you start feeling horny. Nothing free will about it.

How do you explain knowing a location but not speed or knowing speed but not location and yet still claim free will?

[gr8ridejester]

Quote by: Boetie There is no free will. You turn your head, you see someone, you start feeling horny. Nothing free will about it.

You chose to turn your head, right?

Quote by: Boetie How do you explain knowing a location but not speed or knowing speed but not location and yet still claim free will?

It's all relative. Knowing where you're going and/or how fast you'll get there coincides with the choice of actually going or not and what direction one goes. It is our free will that has us beleive what we believe. Upon choosing these beliefs, a path has been created. The path, therefore, is determined by the results of our free will.

[5010]

Maybe look at it this way. The will of a system sets forth a purpose for the members of that system, but instead of designing every member to adhere, it designs them to be unique and follow their unique will, and then later selects those who adhere. Free will in this case is member freedom of the system will. They are not free from their own will.

For example: Let's say instead of writing a function that predicts stock prices, a programmer writes a system that generates googles of random functions who follow their own formula (call it "will"). Then the system keeps those who come closest to predicting the prices and duplicates them with random mutations, and allows the variations to compete. The purpose (call it "will") of the system is to produce an answer. But the members of the system are allowed to fail according to their own "will". Then after running the system for a few million years, maybe the programmer can trade better than Martha Stewart.

[Starboy]

Quote by: 5010 Maybe look at it this way. The will of a system sets forth a purpose for the members of that system, but instead of designing every member to adhere, it designs them to be unique and follow their unique will, and then later selects those who adhere. Free will in this case is member freedom of the system will. They are not free from their own will.

Yup, that is the only reasonable way to approach free will.

Starboy

[SteveA]

If the universe was predetermined, then we would be theoretically able to determine the end of it simply by knowing the state at the beginning.

Not only would this be an impossible feat, as we can't even determine accurately the weather a few days from now, nor hardly predict how a handful of dirt will fly through the air, even given a supercomputer with days to calculate things, but on top of all this, quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle indicate that at least for now, it's impossible.

Maybe why quantum mechanics appears to be a blur of different possibilities that tend to resolve into a concrete one over time, is simply a reflection of various "wills" pondering things and reaching conclusions. So even if consciousness was simply a function of electrochemical reactions in the brain, consider that we still can't predict these to any great extent - it's technically impossible, just as we can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay. So there's no way to know whether or not things have been predetermined, nor does quantum mechanics even seem to imply it. If the universe is like a giant chessboard, where we understand the rules of the game but can't predict exactly how the pieces are going to be moved ... then doesn't that tend to imply at least one "person" is moving them?

The only reason why people wonder whether free will exists or not is that everything we can conceive of is limited. If infinity doesn't exist, then life must be finite and repeating or a single shot only. We can only think of infinite as a symbol ... a single symbol. But the existance of even a single alternate dimension (which seems implied by many scientific finding) could easily make true infinities possible, which would mean nothing ever has to repeat and 'forever', 'always unpredictable', and 'ever changing' could exist also.

[Starboy]

Well yes SteveA but the problem is that the words are "free will" but when people use the concept many appear to be thinking "free choice". They are not the same.

Starboy

[gr8ridejester]

Quote by: Starboy Well yes SteveA but the problem is that the words are "free will" but when people use the concept many appear to be thinking "free choice". They are not the same. Starboy

Will, as a noun, can be defined as:
1 : DESIRE, WISH: as a : DISPOSITION, INCLINATION <where there's a will there's a way> b : APPETITE, PASSION c : CHOICE, DETERMINATION
2 a : something desired; especially : a choice or determination of one having authority or power b (1) archaic : REQUEST, COMMAND (2) [from the phrase our will is which introduces it] : the part of a summons expressing a royal command
3 : the act, process, or experience of willing : VOLITION
4 a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group <the will of the people>
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions <a man of iron will>
6 : a legal declaration of a person's wishes regarding the disposal of his or her property or estate after death; especially : a written instrument legally executed by which a person makes disposition of his or her estate to take effect after death
- at will : as one wishes : as or when it pleases or suits oneself

Will, as a verb, can be defined as:
1 a : to order or direct by a will b : to dispose of by or as if by a will : BEQUEATH
2 a : to determine by an act of choice b : DECREE, ORDAIN <Providence wills it> c : INTEND, PURPOSE d : to cause or change by an act of will; also : to try to do so
intransitive senses
1 : to exercise the will
2 : CHOOSE

Which definition suits you best?

[gr8ridejester]

Quote by: LetThereBe I was just wondering how many Christians believe in free will vs. predestination Those who believe in free will, I ask to read Romans 9 If that scripture is valid, how can free will exist?

I believe this thread was direct towards Christians, so why are there so many comments by non-Christians? Please refer to the "Rules":
Respect other opinions: If a topic does not interest you, or is “moronic” in your opinion, just avoid it and post a new topic, or respond to something else. Simply contributing to a topic to dismiss the very discussion of it will not be tolerated. That is not debate.

[Starboy]

Quote by: gr8ridejester Which definition suits you best?

While you are at it look up choice and free.

Starboy