Ramadan

[Athena]

This is the Islam month of Ramadan. This means it is a time of fasting and reflection for all Muslims.

Can we separate out those Muslims who for economic, political and military reasons, have taken to violence, because they do not represent the faith. This problem is brought about by many, many years of bad western political policy. If you want to debate this please start a thread for this. Here I want to speak of the faith, as Mohammed presented it, mandates people to think and reason clearly. It also produces very reverent people who do not mention the prophet Mohammed without stopping to say "peace upon him" and who constantly say "peace be upon you", when closing a written statement. Here are other terms


In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

God willing

These terms are used constantly and daily, producing a culture very humble, peaceful, reverent, and contemplative. What messed this up was western, economic goals that exploited Muslim countries, and often empowered evil dictators, because they could pay them off, support the evil dictator's power, and get for themselves the resources and regional power they wanted. This created chaos and all kinds of evil for people who have been the ideal of Godly people, even as Christian understand this ideal.

But the sin of wrongs begins prehaps with Muslims, long before our memory. Their sin?
When Rome fell, leaving only the Catholic church to bring civilization to a barbaric Europe and unite groups of people who traditional warred with each other, it faced a huge challenge that consumed the energy of the church. Muslims isolited themselves from this barbaric world, and cut off the Christian world's access to ancient documents, and access to the papyrus essential to writing anything down. The result was the Dark Ages far Europe, at a time when the Muslim civilization was excelling in math, science, medicine and all things civilizing.

Please, there is so much to say, and when the world shares awareness of this history and its ramifications, the meaning of the Savior (logos, the word) may be realized. Peace be upon you.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Athena Can we separate out those Muslims who for economic, political and military reasons, have taken to violence, because they do not represent the faith.

Apparently we can't separate out these Muslims. That is what were are trying to do and failing at it miserably. I do not think it is something we will ever be able to do. It is something that the Muslims are going to have to do for themselves. But until they do it, it does leave the rest of us in a quandry. How can we do anything but treat them with distrust? There are far too many Muslims that are trying to kill us.

Starboy

[Samildanach]

A great way to find terrorist cells though. Just monitor who isn't buying food that month.

[Athena]

Quote by: Starboy Apparently we can't separate out these Muslims. That is what were are trying to do and failing at it miserably. I do not think it is something we will ever be able to do. It is something that the Muslims are going to have to do for themselves. But until they do it, it does leave the rest of us in a quandry. How can we do anything but treat them with distrust? There are far too many Muslims that are trying to kill us. Starboy

Darling, I expected better of you.

There are also many Black people who hate White people and blame them for all the misfortune in their lives. History more then justifies the Black prejudice against Whites.
I tell you, it is not us against them, but us living the effects of our history. Be it Jews against Christians or Muslims, Christians against Muslims and visa verse, or Blacks and White pitted against each other, or native Americans trying to regain their dignity and pride that was striped from them, when the immigrants of Europe destroyed the native American way of life, and so on to the cultures and way of live of the Arab people.

I am surprised you did not see the role Christianity has played in these problems. I am surprised you did not immediately get what knowledge can do to resolve the problems.
Not "their" knowledge, but yours You have no control over their lives, but only your own. The quest for knowledge needs to being with you. When you are enlightened, you shine light on all around you, and this is the Saving, the promise of the logos. Peace with you.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Athena Darling, I expected better of you. There are also many Black people who hate White people and blame them for all the misfortune in their lives. History more then justifies the Black prejudice against Whites. I tell you, it is not us against them, but us living the effects of our history. Be it Jews against Christians or Muslims, Christians against Muslims and visa verse, or Blacks and White pitted against each other, or native Americans trying to regain their dignity and pride that was striped from them, when the immigrants of Europe destroyed the native American way of life, and so on to the cultures and way of live of the Arab people. I am surprised you did not see the role Christianity has played in these problems. I am surprised you did not immediately get what knowledge can do to resolve the problems. Not "their" knowledge, but yours You have no control over their lives, but only your own. The quest for knowledge needs to being with you. When you are enlightened, you shine light on all around you, and this is the Saving, the promise of the logos. Peace with you.

Athena, I understand that there is not enough brotherly love to go around, however as long as my neighbor is not trying to kill me we can some how manage to get along. The problem here is that there are a significant number of Muslims that want to kill us. And we do not have the ability to separate the violent from the peaceful Muslims and they do not have the ability to do it themselves. So what is a person that wants to keep their skin intact to do? They do not trust Mustlims. If the Muslims don't like that then they better get their asses in gear and sort out the violent from the peaceful Muslims themselves and do it pronto. There are just so many violent acts of Muslims that people can take before they seek a more permanent solution. And they better act fast because the violent Muslims are trying to get nukes and if they ever get one and successfully use it that will change everything.

Starboy

[Athena]

CheckMate, what an awesome contribution to our understanding! You have provided a great of example of how knowledge is enlightening, and what can be achieved in these forums.

Do others want to contribute to this and inch us a little closer to world peace? How about all those dates? What was happening in the Christian world at these time? What was happening in China at this times? What was happening in the Americas at these times?

In The Mayan Factor, Jose' Arguelles who also claims a mysterious inspiration and revelation, suggest: "Let us, for a moment, consider a scenario. Let us assume the galaxy to be an immense organism possessing order and consciousness of a magnitude transcending the threshold of the human imagination. Like a giant body, it consists of a complex of member star systems each coordinated by the galactic core, Hunab Ku. Cycling energy/ information in clockwise and counterwise directions simulataneously, the dense pulsing glatactic heart emits a continuous series of signals, called by ourselves radio emissions. In actuality these radio emissions correspond to a matrix of resonance- a vast galactic field of intelligent energy (intelligent design ) whose primary on-off pulsation (biorhythm) provides the basis for four universal wave functions; a transmitting or informational function; a radiative, or electnomagnetic function; an attractive (male) or gravitational function; and receptive (female) or pyschoactive function."

Each phase of history can be understood as evolution of consciousness controlled by the center of this immense organism. The promise of a New Age is carried through religion, atrology, I Ching, Kabalah, Mayan. May I suggest the thelogical focus of the bible, in the hands of those who determined what would be part of the bible and what would not, resulted in the bible lacking information that is vitally important to us now.

[Athena]

Quote by: CheckMate This is importent the middle ages and islam. Until about 900, the centers of Islamic power remained in the Fertile Crescent, a semicircle of fertile land stretching from the southeastern Mediterranean coast around the Syrian Desert north of the AraMedina in the Hijaz. Mecca remained the spiritual focus of Islam because it was the destination for the pilgrimage that all Muslims were required, if feasible, to make once in their lives. The city, however, lacked political or administrative importance even in the early Islamic period. This devolved on Medina instead, which had been the main base for the Prophet's efforts to gain control of the shrines in Mecca and to bring together the tribes of the peninsula. After the Prophet's death, Medina continued to be an administrative center and developed into something of an intellectual and literary one as well. In the seventh and eighth centuries, for instance, Medina became an important center for the legal discussions that would lead to the codification of Islamic law. Orthodox (Sunni) Islam recognizes four systems--or schools--of law, and one of these, the school of Malik ibn Anas (died in 796), which is observed today in much of Africa and Indonesia, originated with the scholars of Medina. The three other Sunni law schools (Hanafi, Shafii, and Hanbali) developed at about the same time, but largely in Iraq. Arabia was also the site for some of the conflicts on which the sectarian divisions of Islam are based. The major Islamic sect, the Shia (from Shiat Ali or "party of Ali"), is still represented in Saudi Arabia but forms a larger percentage of the populations in Iraq and Iran. One Shia denomination, known as the Kharijite movement, began in events surrounding the assassination of Uthman, the third caliph, and the transfer of authority to Ali, the fourth caliph. Those who believed Ali should have been the legitimate successor to the Prophet refused to accept the authority of Uthman. Muawiyah in Syria challenged Ali's election as caliph, leading to a war between the two and their supporters. Muawiyah and Ali eventually agreed to an arbitrator, and the fighting stopped. Part of Ali's army, however, objected to the compromise, claiming Muawiyah's family were insincere Muslims. So strong was their protest against compromise that they left Ali's camp (the term khariji literally means "the ones who leave") and fought a battle with their former colleagues the next year. The most prominent quality of the Kharijite movement was opposition to the caliph's representatives and particularly to Muawiyah, who became caliph after Ali. Although the Kharijites were known to some Muslims as bandits and assassins, they developed certain ideal notions of justice and piety. The Prophet Muhammad had been sent to bring righteousness to the world and to teach the Arabs to pray and to distribute their wealth and power fairly. According to the Kharijites, whoever was lax in following the Prophet's directives should be opposed, ostracized, or killed. The Kharijite movement continued to be significant on the Persian Gulf coast in the ninth through the eleventh century and survived in the twentieth century in the more moderate form of Ibadi Islam. The uncompromising fanaticism of the original Kharijites was, however, indicative of the fervor with which the tribal Arabs had accepted the missionary ideology of Islam. It was this fervor that made it possible for Arab armies to conquer so much territory in the seventh century. This same spirit helped the Al Saud succeed at the end of the eighteenth century and again at the beginning of the twentieth. The more orthodox Shia sect originated in circumstances similar to those of the Kharijite movement. Shia believed that Ali should have led the Muslim community immediately after the Prophet. They were frustrated three times, however, when the larger Muslim community selected first Abu Bakr, next Umar (died in 644), and then Uthman as caliph. When Ali finally became caliph in 656, the Shia refused to accept claims to the caliphate from other Muslim leaders such as Muawiyah. The dispute between Ali and Muawiyah was never resolved. Muawiyah returned to Syria while Ali remained in Iraq, where he was assassinated by a Kharijite follower in 660. Muawiyah assumed the caliphate, and Ali's supporters transferred their loyalty to his two sons, Hasan and Husayn. Whereas Hasan more or less declined to challenge Muawiyah, Husayn was less definitive. When Muawiyah's son, Yazid, succeeded his father, Husayn refused to recognize his authority and set out for Iraq to raise support. He was intercepted by a force loyal to Yazid. When Husayn refused to surrender, his entire party, including women and children, was killed at Karbala in southeastern Iraq. The killing of Husayn provided the central ethos for the emergence of the Shia as a distinct sect. Eventually, the Shia would split into several separate denominations based on disputes over who of Ali's direct male descendants should be the true spiritual leader. The majority came to recognize a line of twelve leaders, or Imams, beginning with Ali and ending with Muhammad al Muntazar (Muhammad, the awaited one). These Shia, who are often referred to as "Twelvers," claimed that the Twelfth Imam did not die but disappeared in 874. They believe that he will return as the "rightly guided leader," or Mahdi, and usher in a new, more perfect order. Twelver Shia reverence for the Imams has encouraged distinctive rituals. The most important is Ashura, the commemoration of the death of Husayn. Other practices include pilgrimages to shrines of Ali and his relatives. According to strict Wahhabi Sunni interpretations of Islam, these practices resemble the pagan rituals that the Prophet attacked. Therefore, observance of Ashura and pilgrimages to shrines have constituted flash points for sectarian problems between the Saudi Wahhabis and the Shia minority in the Eastern Province. The Shia minority in Saudi Arabia, like the Shia in southern Iraq, traces its origin to the days of Ali. A second Shia group, the Ismailis, or the Seveners, follow a line of Imams that originally challenged the Seventh Iman and supported a younger brother, Ismail. The Ismaili line of leaders has been continuous down to the present day. The current Imam, Sadr ad Din Agha Khan, who is active in international humanitarian efforts, is a direct descendant of Ali. Although present-day Saudi Arabia has no indigenous Ismaili communities, an important Ismaili center existed between the ninth and eleventh centuries in Al Hufuf, in eastern Arabia. The Ismailis of Al Hufuf were strong enough in 930 to sack the major cities of Iraq, and they were fanatical enough to attack Mecca and remove the sacred stone of the Kaaba, the central shrine of the Islamic pilgrimage. The pilgrimage was suspended for several years and resumed only after the stone was replaced, following the caliph's agreement to pay the Ismailis a ransom. Under normal circumstances, Muslims visited Mecca every year to perform the pilgrimage, and they expected the caliph to keep the pilgrimage routes safe and to maintain control over Mecca and Medina as well as the Red Sea ports providing access to them. When the caliph was strong, he controlled the Hijaz, but after the ninth century the caliph's power weakened and the Hijaz became a target for any ruler who sought to establish his authority in the Islamic world. In 1000, for instance, an Ismaili dynasty controlled the Hijaz from Cairo. External control of the Hijaz gave the region extensive contact with other parts of the Muslim world. In this regard, the Hijaz differed greatly from the region immediately to the east, Najd. Najd was relatively isolated. It was more arid and barren than the Hijaz and was surrounded on three sides by deserts and separated from the Hijaz by mountains. All overland routes to the Hijaz passed through Najd, but it was easier to go around Najd. As the caliphs in Baghdad became less powerful, the road between Baghdad and Mecca that led across Najd, declined in importance. After the thirteenth century, pilgrimage traffic was more likely to move up the Red Sea toward Egypt and so bypass Najd. So there were two faces of Arabia. To the west was the Hijaz, which derived a cosmopolitan quality from the foreign traffic that moved continually through it. In the east was Najd, which remained relatively isolated. During the eighteenth century, Wahhabi ideas, vital to the rise of the Al Saud, would originate in Najdbian Peninsula to the Persian Gulf and linked with the Arabian heartland. After the ninth century, however, the most significant political centers moved farther and farther away--to Egypt and India, as well as to what is now Turkey and the Central Asian republics. Intellectual vitality eventually followed political power, and as a result, Islamic civilization was no longer centered in Mecca and

What you have said is totally awesome and it is sad there is not more interest in what is being said here. So much is said, I can not address it all, but because of my other concerns at the moment, what stands out most for me is this evolution, or what the Mayan Factor would call, transformation, from spiritual birth, consolidation of it, through war, then isolation and focusing on enternal matters, then defusion through as the now strong concept moves outward through politics and material means. Western births- Judism, Christianity, Islam, democracy, wars to establish, strengthen and spread, defusion, weakening. What happens when this different bodies of consciousness meet?
They can revitalize each other or destroy eachother. What will follow?

[Starboy]

Errr Athena, Checkmate is just copying and pasting this from some other source and has not bothered to cite the source in any way. This is a violation of Volconvo rules, not to mention that copying others works without attribution is just plain dishonest. If you don't believe me just highlight a few sentences and do a google.

http://www.exploitz.com/Saudi-Arabia...7001500-cg.php

these, the school of Malik ibn Anas (died in 796), which is observed today in much of Africa and Indonesia, originated with the scholars of Medina. The three other Sunni law schools (Hanafi, Shafii, and Hanbali) developed at about the same time, but largely in Iraq.

Quote by: Checkmate these, the school of Malik ibn Anas (died in 796), which is observed today in much of Africa and Indonesia, originated with the scholars of Medina. The three other Sunni law schools (Hanafi, Shafii, and Hanbali) developed at about the same time, but largely in Iraq.

Athena I must say that you have a very, very, very open mind. It is so open that your brain appears to have fallen out.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Quote by: CheckMate so starboy i found you so small minded that it is quiet stiarght forward and quiet plain when the truth is thrown in your face you try and turn it into something it isn't. That person and what they believe does not matter and what they know must be rubbish in your eyes and what you say is nothing more than what other people have said in the past and i have seen nothing new from what you say apart from what the minority have to say because when the marjoity have thier say that is when fear kicks in. And that is not what you won't is it starboy. You just want what other scientists want control througth fear and if somebody is not on your par, try to make them feel small or is it bully them or is this what you want robots yes sir, yes sir, no sir three bags full sir hes got a bag of sweets i havent got one sir look up at me im telling you. I say sticks and stones may break my bones but lies will never hurt me but the truth mite i think we should all learn from Islam it seems the truth is out there especially when you open your eyes to truth and not closed to one thing.Sorry i could have picked these words up from some where else like the dictionary or the bible sorry i might have copyed some of these words from other sources sorry i might come across stupid.

Checkmate, your description of me and your analysis of my actions may be completely correct. But be that as it may it still doesn't mean that you are not a lying sack of shit and a lunatic to boot!

Starboy

[icu]

Biography of Mohammed