Christian Age of Earth?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Dthmstr254 seems to think that creation occured 8000 years ago or something. Can we all clear this misconception up for him?

Where did the dinos go?

No ice age?

Human repopulation and exploration in such a short period of time?

How did humans get to the "New World?"

So many more questions!!!

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Dthmstr254 seems to think that creation occured 8000 years ago or something.

Got a link?

[Starboy]

You are wasting your time with dthmstr254. He already knows how the universe works. It doesn't matter if his knowledge doesn't actually account for it. In his mind his hocus pocus does and always will account for reality. The only thing that will shake dthmstr254 is a sufficiently large disconfirming event when he is away from those that buttress his beliefs. He suffers from cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/propfail.htm

Starboy

[SteveA]

The Earth was created about 7,000-8,000 years ago and then a bit later God buried dinosaur bones around. This happened a bit before recorded history.

Also, the universe orbits around the Earth, or to be more exact, humans. Whenever someone jumps up and down, the person doesn't truly move, the universe simply bounces off their feet.

[Flip Jackson]

I could give you possible answers to the questions, whether or not I think them the best expanation. I have heard a few different answers.

*These views do not necessarily reveal the beliefs of the writer*

One explanation was that the earth was created from "junk parts" of other planets.I think Genesis actually mentions that God actually used matiral that already existed. Dinosaurs existed on some other planet and died of before ours was formed. The parts used to make our earth had dinosaur bones in them. This would also account for carbon dating and such, because the stuff the earth was made from could be millions of years old, while the earth itself is only a few thousand years old.

Another explanation has to do with the length of time that Adam spent in the Garden. I don't recall Genesis ever specifying how long Adam was chilling in Eden. If he could not die before he ate the fruit, perhaps that was when dinosuars existed. While Genesis says something about there being no death, this could refer to a spiritual death, which is separation from God. Nothing was separated from God because the fall had not happened yet, hence no death.

Yet another idea is that parts of the creation account aren't meant to be literal. The "days" are symbols of days of the week. God "rests" the seventh day, as an example of the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy. God shouldn't need to rest. The "days" might not actaully be days as we know them, but are merely divisions in time to make things easier for us to understand. They could be thousands of years long. Millions of years. Or they could each be different lenghts of time. The important part is the symbol, not length of time.

[SteveA]

The Earth was actually created as a flat square, as the Bible refers to the four corners of the Earth.

Later, the Earth collapsed into a ball, a bit before recorded history and about the same time as the dinosaur bones were buried.

[Flip Jackson]

Wow, I think I could cut the sarcasm with a knife here. Was an actual answer wanted, or is this a "burn the creationists" thread? Let's be nice. "The four corners of the earth" could easily be a literary device to mean "the whole earth," or it could have been a phrase used in that time. We have no idea that it was supposed to be taken as four literal corners.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Wow, I think I could cut the sarcasm with a knife here. Was an actual answer wanted, or is this a "burn the creationists" thread? Let's be nice. "The four corners of the earth" could easily be a literary device to mean "the whole earth," or it could have been a phrase used in that time. We have no idea that it was supposed to be taken as four literal corners.

But there aren't four corners to the Earth. If other passages are intended to be taken literally, why is it that the ones that science is able to attempt to verify seem to turn out wrong? This implies a lack of credibility in the rest of it.

What about Noah and the flood? Where's the ark? It would have been impossible to carry all the animals that exist today in a boat built by a few people, but people back then had no way of knowing this and verifying it because they didn't have the perspective on natural diversity we have now. The bible seems to attempt to explain shells in the Earth as coming from a flood, whereas science says this occured by techtonic plates moving, which explains earthquakes as well. How did religions explain earthquakes before?

The problem was that religions couldn't both claim to know the will of God and then claim they didn't know much of how the universe operated, because God was all knowing. So they had to make up stories and it's proved to be a bad idea.

Science has explainations that can be touched and felt and have the power to predict future things.

I think religions would be better off if they concentrated less on the mystical and more on what makes societies better. I think there's value in many religious beliefs, religions need to take a scientific approach also and demonstrate the value of religious beliefs in tangible terms.

Religions were the initial attempts at government, from my view. What better law enforcement officer could there be than a guy who can see everything you do, including read your thoughts and had the power to make you burn in hell forever? It saves on a lot of enforcement manpower if enough people can operate under this view. That's a positive side, but the flip side is that it allows for tyranny if people aren't careful. The fact that these views survived for so long is a positive as well, as it indicates that it can be the basis for an enduring and peaceful system of beliefs, if people orient their interpretations along those lines.

But I seriously believe it's going to continually be a failed attempt to assume that religions have had some mystical insight into the universe beyond what most all of us already see and it will just leave a credibility gap to try to defend that position.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Flip Jackson Wow, I think I could cut the sarcasm with a knife here. Was an actual answer wanted, or is this a "burn the creationists" thread? Let's be nice. "The four corners of the earth" could easily be a literary device to mean "the whole earth," or it could have been a phrase used in that time. We have no idea that it was supposed to be taken as four literal corners.

What about the literary device of the firmament? Look that one up.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm

Starboy

[Flip Jackson]

Look, I am saying I don't know for sure, and you are looking for a definate answer. I say literary devices are a possible answer, and you act like I say the sky is falling and I should prove it.

My religion believes there is a spirit matter which we can't see or feel. This isn't too far out since we know dark matter exists but don't know much about it. Maybe the divisions of the firmament are of spiritual matter. Maybe it is literary. I don't know.

What more do you want? You ask for possible answers, I give them. If I were to give concrete answers, I would be called a fool. Is this bunch never happy?

While we are at it, lets just burn all poetry and anything that we can't take literally.

[Starboy]

Chill Flip, I understand you are playing the god's advocate.

Starboy

[SteveA]

Well that sounds like an honest statement to me, Flip.

Truth be told, science doesn't have a lot of answers for most things either and there's still a lot of "dark matter", in a more figurative sense that we haven't yet seen, so who can truly say for certain whether there's a God or not.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SteveA Well that sounds like an honest statement to me. Truth be told, science doesn't have a lot of answers for most things either and there's still a lot of "dark matter", in a more figurative sense that we haven't yet seen, so who can truly say for certain whether there's a God or not.

Sure, but I suspect that we would have bumped up against the firmament by now.

Starboy

[SteveA]

The only reason I think there's a need to dispel the more mystical aspects of religion is simply to discourage people from believe someone speaks the will of God.

I do believe people need an inner spiritually - the anchor in the storm, as they say, and it seems it needs to come from internal values and everything should be taken (in moderation) with a grain of salt.

You do fine, Flip. I've noticed you don't do the "will of God" thing and I appreciate it.

[Flip Jackson]

I think I have bumped up against the firmament. That is why I am shorter than my little brother. A piece of firmement is resting on my head.

We need a god advocate here. We either have Bible thumping stubborn Christians, or the other guys that like to play with the Bible thumpers. I have to try to mediate by giving a number a reasonable answers to questions from atheists and agnostics that the thumpers are willing to answer with "God can do everything." There are good answers to many of the questions, but most are speculation. Its just fun to think about.

I try to be as reasonable as I can, but I will rarely give you a definate answer. I can definately tell you that I believe in God, but I don't even pretend to have a full grasp of His doings or reality. I can definatelty tell you that I follow my church's morals, and I feel I have good reasons for doing so. Most of the other stuff doesn't matter as far as salvation is concerned, so I can ponder possible ideas, but would be a fool to claim them as fact.

[Flip Jackson]

Heh, I think there are a few men who can speak the will of God, but I don't claim to one of them. I think God can give us some personal confirmation, but it isn't my place to state facts and God's will for other people. I have my own problems to worry about. I do think my church is true, and I will tell anyone about it, but if you aren't interested, I will take discussion in a different direction.

[phoenix_fire]

The dinosaur bones were simply buried on earth to make people wonder why they are there. The planet builders put them there. The earth is a supercomputer commisioned by the mice.
As for SteveA, the earth DOES push back when you jump. For every action...sound familiar?
Addressing the question of literary devices, bear in mind that:

1.) the Bible as we have it is a translation (and in some cases, a translation of a translation). In Greek and Hebrew (the dominant languages of the original Scriptures), there are many unique words that would be covered with just one word in the English language (which may or may not entirely convey the meaning). The most popular example is the word "love". It is used often in the Bible, but there are four different words used in the original manuscript which mean different things: phileo, eros, agape, and storge. Sanskrit has approximately 96 by the way. The point is, if you want to get all smart about "corners" and such, you're barking up the wrong tree.

2.) Most people who believe that the Bible is inspired still recognize that it was written by human hands. The implication first is that parts of it will tend to use literary devices. Another implication is that things beyond human comprehension are trying to be explained, and thus will be explained from a human standpoint. In classical times, opponents of the Bible exulted when it was put forth that the earth orbited a stationary sun because they said by proving that the sun was not made to stand still at Jericho, the whole authority of the Bible was brought down. The fact is, however, the events were recorded from the perspective of the people there. It seemed to them that the sun usually moved across the sky and that it had stopped. It does not make them wrong. It simply means it was described differently than we would describe it.

Simply put, I don't think it's fair to nitpick at the concept of God, trying to take Him down on technicalities. It really is a way of avoiding confronting the subject at hand: either you believe in God or you do not. No one who believes in God is going to be disabused of that belief based on argument, no matter how much "cognitive dissonance" they experience (which trust me, is really a non-issue). No one who refuses to believe in God is going to be convinced no matter how much scientific evidence they are given. For the evangelist to appeal on the grounds of science is futility: he or she is playing by someone else's rules. If you believe in God, you believe that there is proof, but I, as a believer, am equally convinced that once someone has decided one way or the other, trying to argue them into submission will be of little avail.

[SteveA]

The point is, if you want to get all smart about "corners" and such, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Ok, but let's get serious. The story of Noah wasn't an accidental translation or misinterpretation of something. You can't misinterprete entire sections of the Bible. How did he save fresh water fish, like trout? Did he build a waterproof aquarium and go fishing beforehand and if there are general types of animals on some continents that are different than animals on other continents, how did all these things migrate so independent of each other? We look at Australia and find a wide diversity of animals seen almost nowhere else. If Noah dropped these animals off at the same spot, when the ark landed, you'd think we'd see animals relatively randomly spread out all over the world from a central point instead of environments where animals have evolved relatively independently of each other. How could he have found both an arctic fox and a desert mouse when these animals wouldn't have lived within 1,000 miles of each other etc. Besides, since evolution is typically not acknowledged by religions, then Noah must have fit most every species of animal we know about on a man made boat, that as far as I know was only built by his family ... and then we can start next on how would he have fed them, and how would he have kept these different animals alive when they'd all have to live in habitats limited by the ark and what was possible to build.

Why is it that all these miracles, like mana from heaven etc. only exist in story form but are as elusive as psychics in the real world?

And you can't claim the Bible is the word of God ... ummm, so long as you ignore sections X, Y and Z and interprete a few other areas in non-obvious ways.

If you believe in God, you believe that there is proof, but I, as a believer, am equally convinced that once someone has decided one way or the other, trying to argue them into submission will be of little avail.

Yes, this is true and it's not a problem as long as these can remain simply religious disagreements but when they begin to apply to the laws, we need to have better reasons for using police than it simply being something a person believes in but can't explain why there's a need to adopt it as law, at least not when the law must apply to people outside these beliefs.

[deedee]

Quote by: SteveA The Earth was created about 7,000-8,000 years ago and then a bit later God buried dinosaur bones around. This happened a bit before recorded history.

Do you have a source?

[Starboy]

Quote by: deedee Do you have a source?

It is supposed to be the stinkin bible.

Starboy