Following the Jewish people and history evolving.....

[deedee]

Out of respect for Athena, I created this new thread taken from a discussion that evolved from
this thread.......

Quote by: Samildanach Sure why not...but I will warn you I believe the history books when they say the Jews were rich, the Germans needed a scapegoat and Hitler gave them one. I am not sure exactly what 'coincidence' you are referring to. But go ahead, I am doing all the talking I am sure you can tell me. If there are holes or assumptions in your theories I can probably point them out....although I guess that your conjecture is going to be largely full of holes which would make it...holy..hehe sorry couldn't help myself :)

Quote by: deedee Ok. Maybe we can start with Jewish history and with what I agree with in your statement above. 1. The Jews were rich and still are. They became extremely wealthy when they fled their slavery days in Egypt.......according to Jewish history, after the 10th plague, the Egyptians gave all their gold to the Jews and basically booted them out. Do you agree with this?

[leftcider]

Quote by: deedee Ok. Maybe we can start with Jewish history and with what I agree with in your statement above. 1. The Jews were rich and still are. They became extremely wealthy when they fled their slavery days in Egypt.......according to Jewish history, after the 10th plague, the Egyptians gave all their gold to the Jews and basically booted them out. Do you agree with this?

What a myth. Systemic persecution often limited the wealth creating capabilities of the Jewish people. The majority of the Jewish population in Eastern Europe arrived in Eastern Eerope when the nation of Poland-Lithuania invited them during the 16th century. Poland Lithuana later got carved up, and a huge chunk got taken by the Tzarist Russian Empire. The Czars drafted all Jewish boys into the army at age 13, forbad any Jews to live outside "the Pale" of Jewish settlements, causing overcrowding. This policy is where the term "ghetto" comes from. The Czars would also unleash periodic waves of organized homicide on the Jews, especially when he was facing embarassment from things like failed wars. As a result, the Jews of Eastern Europe were of very humble means, mostly living in villages working trades such as tailoring. When they came to America mostly in the 19th century, like most immigrants they came with hardly anything.

One reason they were able to do so well in America was of the traditional Jewish focus on education. Jewish communities in Eastern Europe were some of the most heavily education-focused in the world, with a large degree of the male population dedicated to full-time study of the Torah and Talmud. Also, Ccenturies of persecution created a strong (and still prevalent) sense of Jewish community, which assisted new arrivals socially and materially.

The Jews of Germany and Western Europe were typically more financially endowed and sometimes helped out the Jews of Eastern Europe. These Jews were much more integrated into their respective socities, and often made a conscious effort to submerge their Jewish identity in favor of their national one (this failed to stop persecution, however). The more assimaltionist sects of Judaism, such as Reform, emerged from this location. In Central/Western Europe, historically the jobs that Jews chose to take was often influenced by restrictive Church law. As is well known, the Christian church forbade a Christian to loan another Christian money at an interest rate. This alllowed the Jews to fulfill a necessary function and make some money off banking. What happened sometimes, such as was the case in England, was that a royal family or interest would borrow a great degree of money from the Jews, and rather than repay the them, would expel them from the country. When Jews did make money they often drew the ire of their neighbors and got expelled. Also, in many communities where they were able to establish themselves, (such as Moor-occupied Spain), they got expelled and had to start from scratch. Another example of this is in North Africa where the hundreds of living in some of the most ancient Jewish communities faced persecution and expulsion due to ethnic hatred inspired by the Arab-Israeli Wars of 1948 and 1967. Almost all of them left.

"The Jews" were (and still are) hardly some monolithic group with one set level of wealth. Some populations were well off, while some barely got by. The political situation of persecution had a massive influence on the economic history.

[Samildanach]

Well leftcider that was a much more informed answer than I could have given without researching it, and it rings pretty true with what I know of Jewish history.

[deedee]

Quote by: Samildanach Well leftcider that was a much more informed answer than I could have given without researching it, and it rings pretty true with what I know of Jewish history.

You won't research and verify his information above? Wow. That's faith.

[Samildanach]

I can and will argue this a bit more in depth, however to me it sounds like a relatively informed answer. Give me a little time I will do a bit of reading after work. :)

[deedee]

Quote by: Samildanach I can and will argue this a bit more in depth, however to me it sounds like a relatively informed answer. Give me a little time I will do a bit of reading after work. :)

Ok. This is good, after all, I started this thread because I wanted to have a deep discussion with you. What better person to hold a discussion with than a person who is from London....I am reading that Europe is becoming more and more anti-sematic. Is this true? I usually reserve my 'in depth' discussions for night time. What time is it over there? We are going into the lunch/noon hour over here.

[Samildanach]

At the moment it is 17:20 but I am not actually originally from London but I have worked here for the past four years, A deep deep discussion, you are scaring me, I've only just met you and you want to go so fast so soon :)
I don't really know how attuned I am to the whole anti-semitic feeling over here. At the moment there is much more of an anti-muslim feeling due to the attacks.

[Boetie]

There are two definitions of Jew. One being a member of one of the 12 tribes, the other praciticing Judaism.

The first definition no one can fit because the tribes has disappeared about 2000 years ago. It would be impossible to determine if anyone living today is an actual member of one of those 12 tribes.

This leaves us with only the 2nd definition. As far as Judaism, it is broken into just as many sects, in other words there isn't a single authoritative Judaism.

The history is just as shaky as Christianity.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: deedee You won't research and verify his information above? Wow. That's faith.

Well thanks for the definition of faith: Belief in nonresearched, unverifiable information. Thanks!

[deedee]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Well thanks for the definition of faith: Belief in nonresearched, unverifiable information. Thanks!

LOL! Negative. There are 'multiple meanings:

faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

[deedee]

Quote by: Samildanach At the moment it is 17:20 but I am not actually originally from London but I have worked here for the past four years, A deep deep discussion, you are scaring me, I've only just met you and you want to go so fast so soon :)

lol! well, we better slow waaaay down. one musn't rush into things. lol. just kidding.

I don't really know how attuned I am to the whole anti-semitic feeling over here. At the moment there is much more of an anti-muslim feeling due to the attacks.

wow! well, hopefully people will be anti-terrorist and not necessarily anti-muslim.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: deedee LOL! Negative. There are 'multiple meanings: faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.

"Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." That's good enough for me.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." That's good enough for me.

Notice it is the number two definition. My bet is that it was a very close second. This is why I do not like to use the word belief all that much.

Starboy

[deedee]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." That's good enough for me.

And my point was that there are many definitions to the word faith. It is important that you are clear in how you relay and communicate to others. This is how things get screwed up.

Some people may use this definition: "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing."

....yet others may use this to define faith: "Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters."

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: deedee And my point was that there are many definitions to the word faith. It is important that you are clear in how you relay and communicate to others. This is how things get screwed up. Some people may use this definition: "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." ....yet others may use this to define faith: "Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters."

Or you can just look at the word's context in a sentence.

[Matt W]

Anyhoo. Back to the subject at hand. I'd not say there's an anti-semetic feeling in England - never really has been here.....but in Europe, there is certainly much more of an anti-Israel, pro-Palestine stance than you find in the US (from my limited experience). It has often been labelled as anti-semetism, but it is in no way the same thing.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Matt W Anyhoo. Back to the subject at hand. I'd not say there's an anti-semetic feeling in England - never really has been here.....but in Europe, there is certainly much more of an anti-Israel, pro-Palestine stance than you find in the US (from my limited experience). It has often been labelled as anti-semetism, but it is in no way the same thing.

That's the usual generaliztion people make, especially conservatives. That is, anti-Israel equalling anti-semitism. Doesn't make sense, even though I do fnd Israel to be very annoying and selfish at times.

[leftcider]

Quote by: Boetie There are two definitions of Jew. One being a member of one of the 12 tribes, the other praciticing Judaism. The first definition no one can fit because the tribes has disappeared about 2000 years ago. It would be impossible to determine if anyone living today is an actual member of one of those 12 tribes.

I disagree. First of all, it is likely that some of the African and Middle Eastern Jewish populations are descended from the "original" Israeli Jews. Secondly, It doesn't matter if most Jews are literally descendants of these people when answering the question of "if they are Jews" or not. The non-religious definition of a Jew is that of a cultural or ethnic Jew. Someone can have a Jewish cultural or ethnic identity like someone can have a Polish identity, a French identity, etc. It is no more "natural" or "artifical" than any of these. If anyone disagrees, I would like to hear your reasoning as to why.

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Well thanks for the definition of faith: Belief in nonresearched, unverifiable information. Thanks!

Quote by: deedee You won't research and verify his information above? Wow. That's faith.

Are you guys seriously challenging the accuracy of what I have written? If so, say it. I can't tell.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: leftcider Are you guys seriously challenging the accuracy of what I have written? If so, say it. I can't tell.

I don't see what the definition of faith and your post have anything to do with each other. I was talking to deedee.

[deedee]

Quote by: Matt W Anyhoo. Back to the subject at hand. I'd not say there's an anti-semetic feeling in England - never really has been here.....but in Europe, there is certainly much more of an anti-Israel, pro-Palestine stance than you find in the US (from my limited experience). It has often been labelled as anti-semetism, but it is in no way the same thing.

That's the sense I get from Europe......is there a lot of migration of the Jews going 'out' of Europe -- like they did in Russia? A lot of Jewish people have left Russia as Russia appears to be one of the most anti-Jewish countries ever.