reincarnation

[Athena]

Quote by: LetThereBe Well, here is your Christian. (and male too) I think its funny how many people talk about what they like to believe. I would like to believe that someday I will be given ultimate authority over the earth, never die, and am admired by all. That would be fun. But it is not true. However, unlike evolution and atheism, I see few funamental flaws with Buddhism. I have read one book on it so I only have a rather basic understanding. First I ask is there a creation in Buddhist tradition? If not, where did the kharma come from to cause our first birth? If there was a creation, how was our first birth decided? Second, if I remember correctly, there are six realms (human, animal, hungry ghost, god, demi-god, and buddha) since there has been an overall increase in human (and probably also animal) life on the planet, either we are seeing a vast decline in the other realms, or the net amount of life is increasing. Where would this life be created? Once again, please forgive my ignorance. I would like to say that one thing is sure: Christianity and Buddhism don't mix. They contradict each other, and connot both be true. Jesus claimed to be the truth the way and the life. Either that is fact, or it is not. There is no middle ground.

These are some very good questions. I know we a thread on reincarnation, but in searching for it, I am hooked on too many old threads and would swamp the board with old discussions if I don't stop my search, so here is a new thread for reincarnation, as a new person wants to discuss the topic. To avoid this search problem in the future, I want to start a discussion group specifically for those interested in reincarnation. Then we can have a thread that isn't burried by discussion of Christianity. Are there enough people willing to support this cause?

[LetThereBe]

Agreed. I would like to learn alot more of Buddhist reincarnation, and reincarnation in other belief systems.

[The Thinker]

All the Religions of the past believed in Reincarnation including Christianity until in 325 AD when Emperor Constantine made it a heresy. He just wanted the siding with the Catholic Church even though he himself was a believer in the Sungod worship. Now get this, once Reincarnation was dumped the Catholic Church invented Purgatory to take its place which is you give money to the church and the priests will say prayers (indulgences) to get that poor soul stuck in Purgatory out and off to Heaven. Talk about changes. Then came Protestantism which dumped Books from the Catholic Bible because they too wanted their teaches added on or omitted. These Religions don't pay any attention at all to Revelation saying not to add on or leave out how it originally was in the Bible. The Bible to me is a rearranged book. The preachers just teach what they like told.

[Athena]

Okay, so far there are 4 of us interested in a group for reincarnation. Unfortunately it takes 10 interested people to have a private group, so until we get 10 people we have to work at keeping this thread on the front page so new people can find it.

Thanks for the lesson of when Christianity dropped reincarnation and added Purgatory. I didn't know that. I know besides the major Catholic and Protest division of Christianity there is also an eastern or Orthadox Christianity. The question to Jesus about who sinned when a child is born with a problem, the parents or the child, seemed to suggest reincarnation. For sure it implies karmic law, and does "you reap what you sow". Also Jesus's statement of many mansions can suggest reincarnation, or at least the law of karma.


1) John 14. The Holy Bible: King James Version.
...heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place...

[gr8ridejester]

Actually, the concept of reincarnation is "more from religions such as Hinduism, Surat Shabda Yoga, Jainism, Sikhism , some African religions as well as various other religions...including Pagan." However, the Buddhist believe in a 'rebirth' which, although similar, is a bit different than reincarnation. Here's what Wikipedia says about "rebirth" as Buddhist perceive it...for those interested.

I do not totally agree with or dismiss reincarnation. I have had experiences with spirits of those who have passed. This has lead me to question why they still linger around. Is it energy left behind or are they aimlessly wondering souls. Some carry out their lives as if nothing ever happened. Maybe they don't know their dead or just refuse to move on. I've never come accross someone who claims they have memories of a past life. However, I've heard of these accounts nonetheless. There is no way, to my knowledge, of proving or disproving reincarnation actually occurs.

[Athena]

Quote by: gr8ridejester Actually, the concept of reincarnation is "more from religions such as Hinduism, Surat Shabda Yoga, Jainism, Sikhism , some African religions as well as various other religions...including Pagan." However, the Buddhist believe in a 'rebirth' which, although similar, is a bit different than reincarnation. Here's what Wikipedia says about "rebirth" as Buddhist perceive it...for those interested. I do not totally agree with or dismiss reincarnation. I have had experiences with spirits of those who have passed. This has lead me to question why they still linger around. Is it energy left behind or are they aimlessly wondering souls. Some carry out their lives as if nothing ever happened. Maybe they don't know their dead or just refuse to move on. I've never come accross someone who claims they have memories of a past life. However, I've heard of these accounts nonetheless. There is no way, to my knowledge, of proving or disproving reincarnation actually occurs.

One reason for having a group, is to hopefully keep the information in one place. We have discussed different aspects of recarnation on different threads, and this stuff keeps getting lost in all the activity of the forums.

I suspect the experience of non incarnate beings, or dreams of the future, is the result of time being a dimension that isn't exactly linear. I don't believe I understand this stuff, so I just file in file cabnet, under possibilities.

I have had a past life memory. Again, I don't understand this stuff, so it is filed in possiblities. Our minds play all kinds of tricks of on us, so my past life memory experience could be just one of those mind tricks. However, there is research that seems to prove many children do remember past lives.

We discussed the purpose of not remembering past lives. For me this is like playing a computer game. I think it is more fun playing life, if we don't remember the one before. If we remembered all our lives, we couldn't enjoy new lives, because it would still be the old one. However, sometimes a previous life can influence our present one is positive or negative ways. If there is a negative effect, it is important to be regressed to identify the problem and rework it through the present conscious mind.

[LetThereBe]

Perhaps I do not well understand the law of kharma, but isn't it nothing more than "you reap what you so"? If so, I think that is one of the view universal aspects of all religions.

[SteveA]

I'm not interesting in joining a group on reincarnation but consider that there's nothing scientifically that seems to say it's impossible, maybe not even unlikely.

Consider that energy and matter aren't created or destroyed from what we know of things, so if consciousness is a function or energy/matter, then it likely only transforms as well without being ultimately destroyed. And if consciousness isn't a product of matter/energy and we can't even destroy something we can touch and feel, then how could we destroy something we can't even interact with? (Maybe something outside what we know can destroy it ... who knows)

Then again science has a hard time proving or disproving a lot of this type of stuff anyway, so it's likely anyones guess.

[Kuldeep]

reincarnation

Quote by: Athena Are there enough people willing to support this cause?

Sorry dear, I am late to locate the thread, somehow! You have started the thread on reincarnation with the most approprate quote by LetThereBe in which mainly two questions are asked. I shall to answer those first before I put my feelings into the thread.

Quote by: LetThereBe First I ask is there a creation in Buddhist tradition? If not, where did the kharma come from to cause our first birth? If there was a creation, how was our first birth decided?

Bhuddist tradition, which infact is one small fraction of Sanatan Dharma (wrongly termed Hindu religion). Not going into the contaminations made by so called religious scholars (Pundits, Peers, Popes etc, etc) in vaious religions; I shall try to answer "Why first birth took place when there was no past Kharma in balance. First, the direct answer and then the explanation. The answer is that in fact, there is no first or second birth, the whole thing goes on and on like a wheel with no begining or end.

I am using your first hand information to explain this statement. You are conscious of yourself that you are something which you do not know what. That something is common in all living and non-living beings (conceivable and even non conceivable). That something is itself shapeless and beyond conception. By a simple thought of IT's wish to know how IT (something) looks like. The result of that thought came out to be "this whole universe", having that something in everything having mutiferous properties. It is due to one such property, "ignorance of ego of separate self existence", we consider ourselves a separate identity. The fact is there is no first or second birth theory. It is properties that Something which we watch around. It goes on in a circle which has no begining or end. As long as you are retaining the property of considering yourself a separate identity, you remain separate. The moment you achieve the realisation you are not separate than your inner most, you shall become desireless and property less and also beyond conception. There after you won't be bound by Kharmic bondage; which is called merging with ultimate. So in conclusion, there is no hypothetical first and second birth, it is cycle of births which go on and on. Creation is just by thought of ultimate consciousness which has no time scale as we know on earth.

As regards your second question, there is definitely transfer of one species to another due to desire, vacancies, evolution or survival of the fittest. I may add all these properties are also of that Something. :confused: More on hearing from you!!!

[LetThereBe]

Very interesting. What exactly are the major points of disagreement between different belief systems involving reincarnation: such as Buddhist and Hindu?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: LetThereBe Very interesting. What exactly are the major points of disagreement between different belief systems involving reincarnation: such as Buddhist and Hindu?

Thank you for your comments on my answer. I shal take it granted you have understood what I wanted to convey.

I am sorry, I can not comment on dis-agreement between Hindu and Buddhist systems of belief involving reincarnation. I am scientist by profession but not very studious. I read less but think and reason more. Reading makes you more informative about what others say and think. Some things may appeal you some may not. But on the other your own logical thinking would make you to reach reality without anybody's contamination. Before I speak about my reasons for believing reincarnation, I would answer your quiery. From general knowledge, I can tell you that both believe in rebirth and Kharmic theory and ultimate purpose of life, for the both, is to know the absolute reality and merge with that something . Hindu calls it Mokhsha while; Buddhist calls it Nirvana. Both the words mean "getting rid of repeated pain giving birth and death of living beings, human in particular."

Coming to reasons, why I believe in reincarnation, the main reason is my first hand information from a lady (Professor) of our locality, who remembers not one but two of her two past births. Only few days back, she herself narrated the detail on one of Indian News channel AAJ TAK.

If you re-read my explanation to your basic question which was quite a terse one for bookish knowledge person "Why first birth at all took place without Kharmic balance?", you may find, I did not make use of any religion or faith. Right from my childhood, I was wondering like others, who we are actually and where from we have come, who made this universe etc. etc. Once, at the age of about 8 years (1958-59), I was listening to running commentary of criket match between India and Ausralia being played in Mumbai, I was so much engraved into commentary that I started watching batsman, bowler etc. Suddenly, a thought flashed in my mind that the way I have created a batsman and a bowler by deep thinking, it is just possible that this universe also can be a deep thought of the creator ( "Something" modified only yesterday only). I even wondered the way we exist, would that batsman and bowler also exist somewhere. Possible, they must be actually living some where. All that was a child's thinking. It may not be correct or may be who can tell??? Well, I told this new idea to my father (a great hindu religious scholar). He wondered how I got this idea at this age and informed me that Yes, this is itself greatest Hindu system of belief known as Thought Phylosophy of Creation. In later years, I gathered information about Shivasm (one belief of Hindu religion, according to that it is only one and due to agnorance we see many. Or, say one in all and all in one ) while; my answer was logical modification of that belief.

The second reason for belief in reincarnation is difference in luck people and animals particularly are having. I have written in grater detail about this on different threads which you may like to refer. The gist is, why a mere dog, enjoys biscuits of master while human (beggar's child) does get half a loaf of bread. This cannot be explained without reincarnation. Since this can not be with out a reason and nature can not be injustice; Reincarnation and old fruits of Kharmas can fit in well to explain.

Third reason is Newton's third law of motion, or say as you sow so shall you reap. a lot of actions are being done till death, whose reactions are not possible to observe so that Something comes back to observe those awaited reactions.

Fourth reason is the fact that a person always does or try to do whatever he likes to do. Out of all actions he does everything possible to protect his body on prioity. Meaning he loves his body the most as he ignorantly takes for granted that he is nothing more than body. But when death reveals to him that he is not, in fact the body. He looks by himself all rituals (according to his religion) being done on to his body and thus feels pained for it and desires to get one more similar body. Nature is not curel, it provides him one in the form of reincarnation. It is my feeling, man becomes man and women a women only, since, they repent on their own type of body. This is proved by most of the persons remembering their past births. Even, our local lady was female in both of her rebirths. There is possibility of inter-changing provided, one has deep liking to have a different type of body, sex wise or speicy wise.

[Lilith]

Well, I was typing a most lengthy reply to this thread, then X'd myself off the forum...hellfire and damnnation! :( So anyhoo, yes I would like to be part of the renicarnation discussion. I'll return with my 2 cents worth later.

[Athena]

It seems like a long time since I have had time and energy for the forums.

Kuldeep, on this idea of reincarnation and one getting out of life the karma of a previous life. In the US where there is much opportunity, it seems clear we get what we earn in this life. We can be born in very poor circumstances and end up millionaires. I haven't figured out how to do this, but plenty of people have. I am just not that highly motivated to get money. Now prehaps this could be argued a matter of karma? I am sure I could be much richer than I am, if only I want the money enough. Instead I am compelled to give service to others for nothing, and often end up spending the little I have on those I am helping. I am complaining. It is like I am in one of those parks with many different rides, and I am stuck on a ride, wishing I were on different ride.

I find it curious that we are as we are, even though we might want to be different. I read something about who we are is not the personality of personality we are born with. Our personalities sort of come with our bodies. What is it Deepak Chopra says? something about who is the observer of our lives? Who is asking the question?

[Athena]

Has everyone seen "The Never Ending Story"? It is the reverse of Kuldeep is saying about the Something. "The Never Ending Story" is about the Nothing that is consuming the Something. Without the creator creating a story there is nothing.

I had an experience where I became conscious of being the wood fence, the prisioner, the person next door. That is a moment when I didn't experience myself separate from anything or everything. That stopped my exploration in Buddhism, because I realized I like being separate. It also ended my pursuit of the Christian heaven, because I realized without all my faults, I wouldn't be me. I wouldn't be separate from the whole. It is our faults as well as our good that makes us who we have.

While I have not exactly enjoyed the whole of my life, and don't like everything about myself, I do like having my own identity. I am not ready to be one with the oneness, nor I am ready of a heaven. My motto is, if life weren't challenging, no one would want to play the game. But then, what are the rules of the game? Is there an altimate goal for which we should all be working? Should we be striving to end human suffering or should we ignore it as none of our business? What is the human potential? All I know is I like to believe we have not yet reached our full potential and the game is acheiving that. The game is so immense it takes many life times to play it.

We have however, come to the end of many vital resources. As the ancients said, the fire of life is greater than that which is there is left to consume. Whatever the future will be, it will be radically different from what we have known, because we are close to the end of finite reality. If it doesn't all start up again, mortality is more of a reality than many of us what to believe.

[Lilith]

Souls returning again and again to right past wrongs or continue to evolve to that state of bliss, salvation, nirvana, etc. Now that makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to just have one lifetime to get it right. Maybe that is what traditional relgion means when it says that God is a loving god and wants all his children to return to him, so he keeps giving us chances. Not that I am saying that there is a literal man sitting around waiting for us to get our shit together!

[Athena]

I sure think reincarnation is the fairest way to go. It is sort of alarming to me, when I a Christian recoils at the idea of having another life. How paradoxical to want heaven and not life as we know it, and not deal with one's own short comings. Someone who wanted to eat anything he pleases with no concern about his health, got a real tongue lashing, but isn't that what all Christians want, a heaven that is 100% pleasing with no down side? A God who wants children, may not be the best parent? Hum, I am wonder if this Christian dominance of the US is related to our children doing less well in school, and so many doing poorly in life, expecting a government to be a good and gentle parent. I think the whole of the US is having trouble transitioning children to adulthood. Perhaps if a concept of reincarnation were dominant, we would be more motivated to mature?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Instead I am compelled to give service to others for nothing, and often end up spending the little I have on those I am helping. I am complaining. It is like I am in one of those parks with many different rides, and I am stuck on a ride, wishing I were on different ride.

Due to your previous balance, you have achieved what you were to achieve and you have taken help from others and also extended help to others. Both ways it was due. Or, some actions could be fresh ones whose fruits would remain as balance. Since our memory is only pertaining to present life, we won't be able to know whether it was due for you to help others, Or, it is your fresh action. In both the cases, by doing good actions you are gainer. If it is previous balnce you are clearing debt while; if is fresh action you are earning good for furure stock. Where is the problem???

You had ride in present life, as destined by your previous Karmas. Now, you wish to have different but better ride, so earn for that by performing good actions so that good shall befall on you in future life, to get a better ride you wished. Again no problem!!!

I find it curious that we are as we are, even though we might want to be different.

The answer is as above!!!

I read something about who we are is not the personality of personality we are born with. Our personalities sort of come with our bodies. What is it Deepak Chopra says? something about who is the observer of our lives? Who is asking the question?

I am not aware of all this!! Deepak Chopra, if has said that he is definitely wrong. Our personality is due actions done in our repeated, repeated, repeated, repeated, repeated.... up to infinite lives. I can write in bold capital letters that "Our personalities sort of come with our bodies"IS WRONG" You are your own observer!!!!!!! you are the judge and you are being judged. Your acceptance that you are doing actions makes you automatically responsible for bearing its reaction, good or bad. No arguments on that please!!!!

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Has everyone seen "The Never Ending Story"? It is the reverse of Kuldeep is saying about the Something. "The Never Ending Story" is about the Nothing that is consuming the Something. Without the creator creating a story there is nothing..

It is not the reverse of what Kuldeep is saying. Everyone is right in the never ending story and playing its role. Everybody sees day to day action/reactions being faced by him/her. But remembers only one life at a time. Death is some sort of accident which removes previous memory, but the balance stock exists. Nothing is not consuming something. Nothing itself is something. Because pure something is propertyless and therefore beyond conception. Because of that, it has been also termed "Nothing". I have repeated it many a times that beyond conception, something (also nothing due to not being able to conceive) has developed a thought to know itself. The result of that thought has come out as this universe, as one of its properties.

I had an experience where I became conscious of being the wood fence, the prisioner, the person next door. That is a moment when I didn't experience myself separate from anything or everything. That stopped my exploration in Buddhism, because I realized I like being separate. It also ended my pursuit of the Christian heaven, because I realized without all my faults, I wouldn't be me. I wouldn't be separate from the whole. It is our faults as well as our good that makes us who we have.

Absolutly correct and thought provoking!!! You could not bear the glimpse of absolute reality in the experiences you mentioned due to your hidden wish to continue as a separate identity. Nothing wrong!! It is your game, play as you like.

While I have not exactly enjoyed the whole of my life, and don't like everything about myself, I do like having my own identity. I am not ready to be one with the oneness, nor I am ready of a heaven. My motto is, if life weren't challenging, no one would want to play the game. But then, what are the rules of the game? Is there an altimate goal for which we should all be working? Should we be striving to end human suffering or should we ignore it as none of our business? What is the human potential? All I know is I like to believe we have not yet reached our full potential and the game is acheiving that. The game is so immense it takes many life times to play it.

Aha!!! many many questions!!! You wish to be a separate identity, fine act that way. Play fare game, try to remove other's miseries. Do whatever you wish to do. Remember the golden rule of the game is "As you sow so shall you reap". Which I have term "Action ant its reaction"; third law of motion!!!!!! Ultimate goal is to be in something or nothing :confused:

We have however, come to the end of many vital resources. As the ancients said, the fire of life is greater than that which is there is left to consume. Whatever the future will be, it will be radically different from what we have known, because we are close to the end of finite reality. If it doesn't all start up again, mortality is more of a reality than many of us what to believe.

You, as individual were at the end of finite reality when experienced yourself in wood fence and the like; but wanted to continue as finite only. It is not true for all. Everybody is at different potentials as far as realisation is concerned!!!! Mortality is more of reality as long as you are a separate existing identity; but not when you were experiencing yourself in everything e.g.wood fence. Finite or infinite reality both are like wheel of cycle with no begining or end. End of finite comes when you experience yourself as infinite and end of infinite comes the moment you experience yourself finite!!!!!! :)

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Lilith Souls returning again and again to right past wrongs or continue to evolve to that state of bliss, salvation, nirvana, etc. Now that makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to just have one lifetime to get it right. Maybe that is what traditional relgion means when it says that God is a loving god and wants all his children to return to him, so he keeps giving us chances. Not that I am saying that there is a literal man sitting around waiting for us to get our shit together!

Well, you have just started to think in the right direction that we come back again after death. It is with a proof from few, who narrate their past life's incidents ( pure scientific).....no adultration. But the reason, you are putting for recarnation is not correct. The reason, I shall tell as under:

You are recognised by your relatives, friends including yourself due to your body only. So the person has got so much attached to body that mistakingly, body is considered as the self. It is because of this everybody loves his/her body the most. Unfortunately at the time of death, one sees the body lying by the side of his self. Since, the person loved its body just as himself so, logically would be grieving for the loss. Nature, being not curel at all, provides another body in somebody's womb. Thus, it is due to our own wish and grief for lost body, we get or, better take willingly another body.

Your thinking is not correct, because everybody around us is not trying to right past wrongs; militants for example!!!

[Lilith]

Quote by: Kuldeep Thus, it is due to our own wish and grief for lost body, we get or, better take willingly another body.

Maybe this what Jesus was trying to show us, by dying then resurrecting in the same body. That the soul does not have to keep forgetting and coming back in differents bodies, or the longing to to keep reincarnting over and over. Becoming aware of the divinity within and remebering. Am I making any sense?