trinity

[Athena]

What is the trinity? A Father, Son, Holy Ghost as three gods and shouldn't we include Satan in this group of supernatural beings? Catholics deify Mother Mary and dedicate prayers to her, so shouldn't we say Father, Son and Holy Mother?

How about the trinity being three aspects of God. That is the Christian debates with Christians- is Jesus God or the Son of God? But we still can't get away from Satan. How can there be a supernatural trinity and then Satan? Is Satan the dark side of God?

[Starboy]

Good point Athena. The Christians need the devil as much as they need god.

Starboy

[The Thinker]

What I do believe is Christians do not have the Original Bible in fact the oldest New Testament was written by the Catholic Church then rewritten by the Protestants who threw out books because they wanted their way only to be taught. Much in the Bible could not be what Jesus actually said, for example thou are Peter and I will build my Church... Clearly, back in Jesus's day that word did not exist. I really think it stand to reason the New Testament was written by the bishops of the Catholic Church and these people were very ungodly people. They issued the Inquistions, etc. The Protestants likewise had their Inquistions. When you talk to these people its all spiritualized when they can't answer.

[Starboy]

Well yes Thinker. Most of the historical accounts of the teachings of Jesus never made it into the bible. Christians claim that theirs is somehow a factual historical tradition but when you examine their evidence it is not what they present that makes one smell a rat (well a great deal of that smells as well), it is what they don't present. Exactly what one would expect from a liar.

Starboy

[Irene]

Athena, someone once explained the trinity to me like this: You are a Mother, a daughter and a sister. You are one "person" however you have different rolls as each. Satan is a fallen angel, seperate entity. Mother Mary, I believe, was a very special lady, however I do not believe in saying prayers to her, she was after all, human.

it is what they don't present. Exactly what one would expect from a liar.

Starboy, what is IT exactly that the bible DOSEN'T present? and who is the liar? The people who wrote the books or the people that believe in the bible?

Much in the Bible could not be what Jesus actually said, for example thou are Peter and I will build my Church... Clearly, back in Jesus's day that word did not exist.

ok Thinker, which word did not exist, "church"? and could it be that it is just the translation you are reading.(could be temple was translated into church) and where do you get your information from that the bible was 1st written by catholics and then rewritten by protestants?



Wouldn't life be boring if we had all the answers to all our questions?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Irene Starboy, what is IT exactly that the bible DOSEN'T present? and who is the liar? The people who wrote the books or the people that believe in the bible?

There are at least 26 other accounts of Jesus besides the four gospels. Not only were they not included but the church systematically set out to destroy them. Copies and fragments have been found in the last century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tes...hristian_texts
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ity/apocrypha/

And of course after the church gained formal recognition from Rome they began to purge all sects that did not tow the Roman line. They were threatened with death if they did not accept the Roman version of Christianity. Some of the sects did not claim that Jesus was god. Other sects had even more bizarre supernatural constructs than current Christianity. Some sects went underground and still exist today in much abbreviated form such as the Gnostics. For some strange reason Christians assume that the bible is this work of love. If they only knew just a little bit about it they would know that it was a work of power, greed, politics and control.

Starboy

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Athena What is the trinity? A Father, Son, Holy Ghost as three gods and shouldn't we include Satan in this group of supernatural beings? Catholics deify Mother Mary and dedicate prayers to her, so shouldn't we say Father, Son and Holy Mother? How about the trinity being three aspects of God. That is the Christian debates with Christians- is Jesus God or the Son of God? But we still can't get away from Satan. How can there be a supernatural trinity and then Satan? Is Satan the dark side of God?

Most Christians don't think this far into what they believe. They want the ten commandments, some prayers to God, and a hope that they will live in heaven.

[Jack]

One thing the different denominations of christain churches fail to agree on is the trinity.

Another point they all disagree on is what happened to Jesus during the first 20+ years of his life. I've heard answers to that question that still amaze me.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Isherwood One thing the different denominations of christain churches fail to agree on is the trinity. Another point they all disagree on is what happened to Jesus during the first 20+ years of his life. I've heard answers to that question that still amaze me.

If you locate every angle of Christianity, then ask the average Catholic about his take on what happened and why, you'll be fascinated at how differently the questions are answered and that really everyone has their own specific beliefs off the main branch. Makes no sense.

[rcne]

Good
Man
Evil (bad)

A trinity, perhaps the original.
Morals, Ethics, philosophy and religion all try to define and determine for Man what the former and later are.

[Sinner]

Athena What is the trinity?

According to the Orthodox teaching, God is always and forever unknowable and incomprehensible to creatures. Even in the eternal life of the Kingdom of God -- heaven , as we say -- men will never know the essence of God, that is, what God really is in Himself.

But we believe and confess that God the "ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible, ever-existing God," to use the words of the Orthodox liturgy, has made Himself known to creatures. He has revealed Himself in the creation of man and the world, in the Old Testament Law and the Prophets, and fully and perfectly in Christ through the Holy Spirit in the New Testament Church.

In every way that God reveals Himself, He does so through His Son (or Word-Logos) and through the Holy Spirit. It is the same Son and Spirit through whom God made the world, through whom God revealed Himself in the Old Testament, through whom God enlightens and makes alive every man in the world ... that come to us personally in the New Testament Church. The Son comes as a man in the person of Jesus Christ -- we have discussed this already. The Spirit comes to those who believe in Christ in order to make them sons of God in Him.

Thus we have always and everywhere God the Father, the Son of God who comes as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In the Orthodox Church we confess that these three are not three competitive gods, divided, and separated from each other. On the contrary we believe that the Father, who is the Source of all that exists, always has His Son and His Spirit who are not creatures, Who were not made like everything and everyone else, but Who exist eternally with Him; from, in and by His very own divine being.

Thus what God the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit also are, namely: eternal, perfect, good, wise, holy, timeless, spaceless ... divine and worthy of the title GOD.

We believe as well that each of the three divine persons is divine in his own unique way, yet always living and acting in the perfectly absolute unity of the divine truth and love. Thus the Three are one not only because what they are is one and the same, but because their divine union allows of no separation or duality or division whatsoever.

We must hasten to point out here that the Orthodox teaching about the Holy Trinity is not an "abstract dogma" thought up by some clever minds. It is the expression on the level of words -- which are always and of necessity inadequate to reality -- of the loving experience of God in the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of man's living communion with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

The Thinker What I do believe is Christians do not have the Original Bible in fact the oldest New Testament was written by the Catholic Church

Catholic Church didn't exist as separate entity before 1054. Bible was compiled the way we know it today during the First Council of Nicaea (325AD). Church's Holy Tradition determined which books were inspired and which were not.

Starboy There are at least 26 other accounts of Jesus besides the four gospels.

Fortunately there is The Holy Tradition which can distinguish between inspired and uninspired Gospels.

SoccerfreakAB2 Most Christians don't think this far into what they believe. They want the ten commandments, some prayers to God, and a hope that they will live in heaven.

In my experience your statement is the opposite of truth, most Christians I have known are very much into theology and do not simplify things as you suggest.
My faith is a quantitative phenomenon, because untill I accumulated enough theological knowledge I was an atheist (a.k.a. ignorant).

[Starboy]

Quote by: Sinner Fortunately there is The Holy Tradition which can distinguish between inspired and uninspired Gospels.

The so called "Holy Tradition" is most unfortunate for Christians. You see theirs is a historical tradition. And one can't take a historical tradition seriously that blatantly suppresses history. It is just not the honest thing to do.

Starboy

[Samildanach]

God should have been arrested for revealing himself, just like everyone else. :)

[Sinner]

The so called "Holy Tradition" is most unfortunate for Christians. You see theirs is a historical tradition. And one can't take a historical tradition seriously that blatantly suppresses history. It is just not the honest thing to do. Starboy

Starboy, you use the word "honest" way to often as often as a used car salesman.

History is a subject open to manipulations. What you know about the history is not the result of your effort but rather a result of you lack of effort to filter brainwashing, people are subjected to.

Only Christianity is the Truth because The Holy Tradition is the very mechanism that prevents manipulations.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Sinner Starboy, you use the word "honest" way to often as often as a used car salesman.

I am forced to use it often with posting with supernaturalists.

History is a subject open to manipulations. What you know about the history is not the result of your effort but rather a result of you lack of effort to filter brainwashing, people are subjected to.

All subjects are open to manipulation. That is where the honesty comes in.

Only Christianity is the Truth because The Holy Tradition is the very mechanism that prevents manipulations.

Oh yes, of course! It is true because the truth mongers say it is true. And you are comparing me to a used car salesman? At least I want to look at everything availible to make up my own mind. It is dishonest when accounts are deliberately suppressed. That is what used car salesmens do that makes them dishonest. They do not tell you everything, both the good and the bad.

Starboy

[Athena]

Quote by: Sinner Starboy, you use the word "honest" way to often as often as a used car salesman. History is a subject open to manipulations. What you know about the history is not the result of your effort but rather a result of you lack of effort to filter brainwashing, people are subjected to. Only Christianity is the Truth because The Holy Tradition is the very mechanism that prevents manipulations.

You say what?!! :eek: Talk about a culturally biased statement! Do you know anything of the other religions and the rest of the world? How about the history of Christianity and how you come to your belief? The US culture is so dominated by Christianity it is blind to its cultural bias and gives no thought to how this happened.

I noticed when we write of the ten commandments, google offers us ten commandment sites and only the Judo/ Christian ten commandments are listed as though these are the only people in the entire worlds history who realized the ten commandments. Yet the Actecs have the equalivent and the Buddhist ten fold path is even written better. I am sure google is not out to Christianize the world, but they are biased by their culture. AND THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO BE INTERNATIONAL. Cultural bias is a big mistake.

And we come to this bias because at first when Christians spread into Europe from Rome, they refused to do business with anyone who wasn't Christian, so people became Christian for business reasons. Later when Christianity became powerful in Europe, it became killing all those who dare to say anything not authorized by the church. This killing did not stop within the Christian European countries, but became the cursades and effort to kill all non Christians withing marching distance of Christian Europe. We are culturally biased by Christianity because of killing opposition to Christianity. Here have a blanket infected by small pox- God wants us to save the world for Christians.

[Boetie]

the trinity could be related to pagans. Doesn't anyone find it interesting that you have 12 signs in the Zodiac, 12 jewish tribes, and 12 disciples. It could be that older and more ancient practices existed and found its way into the stories of the Jews and Christians.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Sinner In my experience your statement is the opposite of truth, most Christians I have known are very much into theology and do not simplify things as you suggest. My faith is a quantitative phenomenon, because untill I accumulated enough theological knowledge I was an atheist (a.k.a. ignorant).

What exactly were you being ignorant towards? Religion? And now that you have accumulated this "knowledge" of theism, are you being ignorant to other religions, and science, and nature? A quantitive phenomenon?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Boetie the trinity could be related to pagans. Doesn't anyone find it interesting that you have 12 signs in the Zodiac, 12 jewish tribes, and 12 disciples. It could be that older and more ancient practices existed and found its way into the stories of the Jews and Christians.

12 was also Rome's perfect number, like our 10. When you had 12 people, it was enough for a group. That probably influenced the disciple list. As well as the tribes that we have no account for. As for the Zodiac, I suppose that's mere coincidence, something theists love happening, because for some unknown reason coincidence also means God was involved.

[Athena]

Quote by: The Thinker What I do believe is Christians do not have the Original Bible in fact the oldest New Testament was written by the Catholic Church then rewritten by the Protestants who threw out books because they wanted their way only to be taught. Much in the Bible could not be what Jesus actually said, for example thou are Peter and I will build my Church... Clearly, back in Jesus's day that word did not exist. I really think it stand to reason the New Testament was written by the bishops of the Catholic Church and these people were very ungodly people. They issued the Inquistions, etc. The Protestants likewise had their Inquistions. When you talk to these people its all spiritualized when they can't answer.

How about this? Everything said in the bible is human beings doing their best to explain a theology. The sources are all human thoughts on the subject, and the editors did their best to make the bible coherent but could include everything without also including disagreements. Because so many of the bible stories were told and retold, we do not know the original stories and can not be sure of what "Jesus" actually said and what the editors of the bible wanted him to say, and therefore invented as stories of what Jesus said.

In 10 minutes of playing telephone, the original message is changed. Put ten people in a line holding hands, and have the person at one end whisper a message, this person whispers the message to the next and so on until the last person announces the message, and everyone laughs because it so changed from the original message. Accepting the bible as human effort is one thing. Believing it is anything else is another.