Jesus savior?

[Athena]

I really want to get discussion of Jesus and the trinity out of the "God and law" thread.

What made Jesus the focus of a religion? What part did Paul have to do with this? What did Roman politics have to do with this? How about the technics used by the church to assure Christianity survived and those who opposed Christianity did not? Yes, exactly how did Jesus become so important?

[Starboy]

Jesus doesn't matter. It is not as if the actual practice of the religion has much to do with what Jesus taught anyway. Not that anyone would want to practice it. If you read the words of Jesus that are attributed to Jesus he comes off as a trouble making, anarchist hippy. It amazes me that the so-called conservatives would think they identify with him.

Starboy

[Dirty Name]

Jesus doesn't matter. It is not as if the actual practice of the religion has much to do with what Jesus taught anyway. Not that anyone would want to practice it. If you read the words of Jesus that are attributed to Jesus he comes off as a trouble making, anarchist hippy. It amazes me that the so-called conservatives would think they identify with him.

Care to discuss a few of those words of Jesus that you believe make him a "trouble-making, anarchist hippy? I'm not aware of a single one. He actually advocated following the rule of law, quite the opposite of what you are claiming here.

[Dirty Name]

What made Jesus the focus of a religion? What part did Paul have to do with this? What did Roman politics have to do with this? How about the technics used by the church to assure Christianity survived and those who opposed Christianity did not? Yes, exactly how did Jesus become so important?

How about the fact that ten men - his closest followers - were all executed for proclaiming that Jesus Christ was the Son of God - and that they had in fact observed, heard and touched him just three days after he was executed?

Does that fact hold any significance for you? Many people foolishly attempt to dismiss the deaths of these ten men by pointing to modern day suicide bombers - men who also died for their beliefs.

Yet there is a key difference between those ten disciples and a modern-day martyr. One dies believing he is right based on nothing more than blind faith. The disciples, on the other hand, were in a position to KNOW whether or not what they were saying was the truth.

How many suicide bombers blow themselves up for a cause they KNOW to be a lie?

[Jack]

Yet there is a key difference between those ten disciples and a modern-day martyr. One dies believing he is right based on nothing more than blind faith. The disciples, on the other hand, were in a position to KNOW whether or not what they were saying was the truth. How many suicide bombers blow themselves up for a cause they KNOW to be a lie?

Many more died than that believing the Jones and Koresh were gods. Does that lend any credence to their beliefs? Ten guys are not enough to convince me of much of anything.

You say there are key difference between those ten disciples and a modern-day martyr, but then you fail to say how you know the motives and beliefs of modern day martyrs You say the disciples were in a position to KNOW whether or not what they were saying was the truth. If that's true, then they would also know if they were lying, misleading or exaggerating as well. But they may have decided not to let on, thinking everyone would get the joke. Little could they have known...

I equate the disciples to Enron. "Sure the books are accurate...".

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Athena I really want to get discussion of Jesus and the trinity out of the "God and law" thread. What made Jesus the focus of a religion? What part did Paul have to do with this? What did Roman politics have to do with this? How about the technics used by the church to assure Christianity survived and those who opposed Christianity did not? Yes, exactly how did Jesus become so important?

Jesus is as important to Christianity as the Swoosh is to Nike. He's a logo, a trademark. No one loves Jesus, they never knew him. They love loving something others love too. Take it from a psychological perspective.

[PatrickHenry]

I refuse to discuss this issue in this atheist, hate-filled forum.

Athena, if you want to talk, PM me. You atheists, take a hike to hell...

[Samildanach]

How about the fact that ten men - his closest followers - were all executed for proclaiming that Jesus Christ was the Son of God - and that they had in fact observed, heard and touched him just three days after he was executed?

He probably had a twin..either that or they were hyped up on the mushrooms the anarchist hippy gave them a couple of days before.

[Samildanach]

Jesus is as important to Christianity as the Swoosh is to Nike. He's a logo, a trademark. No one loves Jesus, they never knew him. They love loving something others love too. Take it from a psychological perspective.

Excellent point. Maybe nike can do him running down the road in a pair of nikes in their next ad....then walking over the water...How did jesus walk on water....he had a pair of Nikes!
That would be a great ad.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Dirty Name Care to discuss a few of those words of Jesus that you believe make him a "trouble-making, anarchist hippy? I'm not aware of a single one. He actually advocated following the rule of law, quite the opposite of what you are claiming here.

Quote by: Jesus Leave the dead to bury their own dead (Lk 9:60a)

Yeah baby! Let'em rot. Lets party.

Quote by: Jesus If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Mt 5:39b-41

Yeah baby! Material things are soooo uncool. And it is always cool to drop everything and just go for a walk.

Quote by: Jesus For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake [Perrin suggests here the original would have read, "for the sake of the Kingdom of God"] and the gospel's will save it. (Mk 8:35)

Yeah baby! All you pussies that are trying to be saved are so uncool.

Quote by: Jesus How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! . . . it is easier for a camel (rope) to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. (Mk 10:23b, 25)

Yeah baby! Materialism is for jerks. It is hip to be free of the constrainst of materialism.

Quote by: Jesus But many that are first will be last, and the last first (Mk 10:31)

Yeah baby! Last is first so why bother being industrious.

Quote by: Jesus Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (Lk 14:11)

Yeah baby! Why do you want to go and be successful? Lets party!

Quote by: Jesus He who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. (Lk 9:62)

Yeah baby! Work is so uncool.

Quote by: Jesus Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you . . . (Mt 5:44f)

Yeah baby! Peace not war. (Tell that to the president)

Quote by: Jesus 17 Jesus saith, No prophet is revered as a prophet among those who know him best, for the shadow of his life eclipseth the brightness of his glory. Even his disciples will not know his true nature until he hath passed beyond their reach.

Yeah baby! Move like a gypsy and never stay long enough for them to get to know you!

Quote by: Jesus Yet another said, 'I will follow you, sir, but first let me say goodbye to my family.' Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God' (QS 19).

Yeah baby! Screw your real family. Come join your new family.

Quote by: Jesus Sell your possessions and give to charity (alms). Store up treasure for yourselves in a heavenly account, where moths and rust do not consume, and where thieves cannot break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will also be (QS 40).

Yeah baby! Who needs material things. We have love.

Quote by: Jesus Seek after the treasure which does not perish, which endures in the place where no moth comes near to devour, and no worm ravages (Thomas 76).

Yeah baby! Love is the answer!

Quote by: Jesus Someone from the crowd said to him, 'Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.' But he said to him, 'Sir, who made me your judge or lawyer?' He told them a parable, saying, 'The land of a rich man produced in abundance, and he thought to himself, "What should I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?" Then he said, "I will do this. I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul you have ample goods stored for many years. Take it easy. Eat, drink, and be merry." But God said to him, "Foolish man? This very night you will have to give back your soul, and the things you produced, whose will they be?" That is what happens to the one who stores up treasure for himself and is not rich in the sight of God' (QS 38).

All you need is love!

Quote by: Jesus I am telling you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

All you need is love!

Think of the ravens. They do not plant, harvest, or store grain in barns, and God feeds them. Aren't you worth more than the birds? Which of you can add a single day to your life by worrying?

All you need is love, love!

Quote by: Jesus And why do you worry about clothing? Think of the way lilies grow. They do not work or spin. But even Solomon in all his splendor was not as magnificent. If God puts beautiful clothes on the grass that is in the field today and tomorrow is thrown into a furnace, won't he put clothes on you, faint hearts?

Love is all you need.

Quote by: Jesus So don't worry, thinking, 'What will we eat?', or 'What will we drink?', or 'What will we wear?' For everybody in the whole world does that, and your father knows that you need these things.

Love is all you need.

Quote by: Jesus No man can serve two masters. Either he hates the one and loves the other, or he is loyal to one and despises the other. You cannot serve God and wealth (Mammon) (QS 55).

Yeah baby! The man is so uncool.

Quote by: Jesus For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away (Luke 9:25).

Yeah baby! No need for all that success. Love baby!

Starboy

[Jack]

I refuse to discuss this issue in this atheist, hate-filled forum.

So disagreement is hate?

You atheists, take a hike to hell...

Such charity. "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you . . ."

[Samildanach]

I think if anyone, its the atheists are the ones going to heaven. If I was God I would be saying, hell, look at these guys, true free will showing up at last, they don't need me anymore, I can just kick back and watch and get some entertainment like I planned in the first place. I hope someone nukes someone soon...things get more interesting when they do that.

[Sinner]

I

sherwood Many more died than that believing the Jones and Koresh were gods. Does that lend any credence to their beliefs? Ten guys are not enough to convince me of much of anything.

It's not ten people that died for Christ it's tens of thousands probably even hundreds of thousands.

PatrickHenry I refuse to discuss this issue in this atheist, hate-filled forum.

Lk 12:48 For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

They ( atheists ) were given very little. You can't blame disabled for being unable to run, can you? Same with atheists except their disability is self-inflicted, for:
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Let God be their judge...

Samildanach He probably had a twin..either that or they were hyped up on the mushrooms the anarchist hippy gave them a couple of days before.

As Dostoevsky used to say " Once a man rejects Christ there is no limit to how low he can fall and how much filth he can immerse himself in..."

[Samildanach]

Ahh so you want to play the quote game...

What about what loadofbollockski used to say which is

"He that worries about sinning is probably the man that sins the most" :)

[Boetie]

One cannot understand Jesus without knowing the historical background. There was a battle back then between organized religion and unorganized religion aka Gnostics. It was nothing for the Gnostics to take other religion's writings and modifying those writings, also it was nothing for them to get involved in other religion's ceremonies. This is where the problem is. The organized religions wanted to weed out the Gnostics and in order to do this they came up with a list of believes thinking the Gnostics will not go along witht, such as Jesus is a deity and Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus is a product of politics.

The Jesus rose from the dead routine was so ridiculous and far fetched the leaders of organized religons patted themselves on the back for coming up with something so crazy, but it had to be done to weed out the Gnostics. Again all politics.

[deedee]

Quote by: Athena I really want to get discussion of Jesus and the trinity out of the "God and law" thread.

Ok.

What made Jesus the focus of a religion?

After the fall of Adam, God used his Son to be the second Adam........another way to obtain power from the evil one.

What part did Paul have to do with this?

I don't understand your question fully here, perhaps you can expound.

What did Roman politics have to do with this?

Many think the Jewish people killed Christ..........the Romans are responsible for this death.

How about the technics used by the church to assure Christianity survived and those who opposed Christianity did not?

Great observation. I asked myself these questions as well.

Yes, exactly how did Jesus become so important?

Several reasons on how He became important:

King Herod slayed many infants because of the star prophecies predicting the Messiah's birth. He was controversial from the get-go. He became important because of the controversy He created with other Jewish leaders, and the miracles He performed that caused others to talk about Him, and through His disciples who preached His message throught the Mediterranean.

[Athena]

Quote by: Dirty Name Care to discuss a few of those words of Jesus that you believe make him a "trouble-making, anarchist hippy? I'm not aware of a single one. He actually advocated following the rule of law, quite the opposite of what you are claiming here.

Here is one case where Jesus challenged "authority".

Jesus' Authority Questioned
Mt. 21.23-27 · Mk. 11.27-33
1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

2 and spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?

3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:

4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.

7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.

8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Might I point out, that if Jesus did not challenge existing authority, there would be no Christians. I would like to say those who worship the God of Abraham would all be Jews, but Judism was an exclusive religion, and non Jews could not become Jews. That is why Rome chose Christianity over Judism. Christianity was inclusive. But it is the Jews who hold the word of God, if you want to believe what is written is the word of God and not the word of man.

Jesus said Jews were going by the word of man, and then we tack old testament to the new. We attach a jealous, revengeful, and fearsome war God to the loving and forgiving God of Jesus. Yes, Jesus slightly challenged authority. Jesus and authority is a good subject and several quotes from the bible can be used. In fact it was Jesus's challenges to authority that justified Christians manifesting a democracy instead of autocracy, as the bible freezes our consciousnesss in a time when kings and slaves were assumed, and only the words of Jesus can get Christians past this.

[Athena]

Quote by: deedee Ok. After the fall of Adam, God used his Son to be the second Adam........another way to obtain power from the evil one. I don't understand your question fully here, perhaps you can expound. Many think the Jewish people killed Christ..........the Romans are responsible for this death. Great observation. I asked myself these questions as well. Several reasons on how He became important: King Herod slayed many infants because of the star prophecies predicting the Messiah's birth. He was controversial from the get-go. He became important because of the controversy He created with other Jewish leaders, and the miracles He performed that caused others to talk about Him, and through His disciples who preached His message throught the Mediterranean.

Importance of Paul. There wouldn't be a Christian religion without Paul. People didn't suddenly accept Jesus as the expected messiah. I suggest you learn more about Paul that this one site, because he was so important to the Christian movement. I am being lazy in quoting from the first site I found.

"Paul is regarded as the great interpreter of Jesus' mission, who explained, in a way that Jesus himself never did, how Jesus' life and death fitted into a cosmic scheme of salvation, stretching from the creation of Adam to the end of time. The doctrines of Christianity come mostly from the teaching or influence of Paul, a Pharisee(?) who rejected his Pharisaic Judaism and converted to what he called Christ. Paul would later be placed over his Jewish-Christian rivals by a Gnostic heretic named Marcion."

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

[Starboy]

Quote by: Athena Importance of Paul. There wouldn't be a Christian religion without Paul. People didn't suddenly accept Jesus as the expected messiah. I suggest you learn more about Paul that this one site, because he was so important to the Christian movement. I am being lazy in quoting from the first site I found. "Paul is regarded as the great interpreter of Jesus' mission, who explained, in a way that Jesus himself never did, how Jesus' life and death fitted into a cosmic scheme of salvation, stretching from the creation of Adam to the end of time. The doctrines of Christianity come mostly from the teaching or influence of Paul, a Pharisee(?) who rejected his Pharisaic Judaism and converted to what he called Christ. Paul would later be placed over his Jewish-Christian rivals by a Gnostic heretic named Marcion." http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

Not to mention that Jesus was a Jew. He had contempt for gentiles, in several passages in the bible he compares them to dogs. He was very clear, his message was for god's chosen people, which was the Jews. It was Saul/Paul that found a more receptive audience in the gentiles. It should be noted that the pillars of Jerusalem were luke warm at best on the idea of preaching to the gentiles and never actually approved of it. Also it should be noted that if you read the letters of Saul/Paul it is clear he didn't actually know all that much about Jesus. He had after all never met Jesus. Saul/Paul was like Jesus in one regard, he was preaching a message that the authorities didn't like so they killed him.

Starboy

[Athena]

Quote by: deedee Ok. After the fall of Adam, God used his Son to be the second Adam........another way to obtain power from the evil one. I don't understand your question fully here, perhaps you can expound. Many think the Jewish people killed Christ..........the Romans are responsible for this death. Great observation. I asked myself these questions as well. Several reasons on how He became important: King Herod slayed many infants because of the star prophecies predicting the Messiah's birth. He was controversial from the get-go. He became important because of the controversy He created with other Jewish leaders, and the miracles He performed that caused others to talk about Him, and through His disciples who preached His message throught the Mediterranean.

Part of the problem arising in disagreement between Christians and non Christians, is some have a broader understanding of history than others. When most people believed in many Gods, they had patron gods who protected them from others. This belief system is in fact what the God of Abraham is about. The God of Abraham served the Jews and no others. The God of Abraham was a war God protecting Jews and enabling them to take land from others. Okay- follow? People believed the people with the most powerful God won wars. This must be understood to understand the significants of this event in history that changed the world.


Battle of the Milvian Bridge

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/...HistoryID=ac58

If this link doesn't work, google Rome becomes Christian.

Dee Dee, remember I said Christians believe what they believe because of culture. You argued you have studied other religions and don't attend a church, and your arguement, along with what you don't know, is the best proof of how the US is so dominated by Christianity, Christianity is so much a part of US culture, that people are blindly following the religion. You explained everything with the Christians culture explanation, which is far from having an understanding of the history how of Christianity became the religion it is today. It wasn't Supernatural power that made Christianity the religion it is today, but human action.

I challenge all non Christians to support you Dee Dee, because she sure should not be in these arguments alone. I admire Dee Dee for hanging in here and giving the best arguments she can. She appears to have more courage and spirit than others. Strong Christians should be standing with Dee Dee. Don't abandon her!

On the other hand, I want to admonish non Christians, including myself, to be more tactful and stop driving Christians out of these arguments with thoughtless and sometimes even cruel statements attacking the character of others. WHEN WE WANT REASON, WE MUST BE VERY CAREFUL TO NOT INSITE EMOTION! GET IT STARBOY AND OTHERS? STOP SAYING THINGS THAT TRIGER PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS AND STICK WITH GOOD REASONING.