Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

[RickSp]

From the Journal of Religion and Society. They conclude that the more religion, the worse things become.

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society. The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world. “In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. “The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.” Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions. He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy. The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Comments?

[Dirty Name]

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

What rot. And yet, the passage posted here offers no logical explanation for why such a correlation exists. So let me postulate a theorem:

These correlations exists because non-believers overcompensate for religious morality by attempting to live their lives without any.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Dirty Name What rot. And yet, the passage posted here offers no logical explanation for why such a correlation exists. So let me postulate a theorem: These correlations exists because non-believers overcompensate for religious morality by attempting to live their lives without any.

So you recommend the return of the Inquisition? Show the non-believers the error of their ways?

Of course it doesn't explain why all those non-believers in the less devout countries have lower rates of crime and other immorality. Perhaps a lower level of hypocrisy is healthy.

[SteveA]

I'm a bit skeptical of the implicit conclusion. I think many things are due to culture clashes instead.

It would be interesting to check things on a state by state basis and see if more religious states have a higher or lower crime rate or STDs. I'm pretty sure these are lower in more religious areas.

These correlations exists because non-believers overcompensate for religious morality by attempting to live their lives without any.

That's not a very good defense of religion. If we assume this is true, then it still equates to the same thing.

[argonak]

The concept of religion itself is good. Most religions have good values and beliefs.

But like anything else, humans can twist it apart to use it for their own greedy ends. A thousand years ago the crusades occured primarly due to an overabundance of men trained for war with a limited array of options for excersing these. Religion was merely an excuse for a war of conquest. The great expansion of islam preceding this era was the same. Religion is often used by humans as an excuse to do what they would have done anyway.

There have been many, many, many other wars of conquest that didn't even bother to pretend.

A positive philosphy is only beneficial if you actually believe and follow it. If someone just paints its icon on their flag and goes about their evil ways, its not the philosphy's fault.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: RickSp So you recommend the return of the Inquisition? Show the non-believers the error of their ways?

I hope that's a joke. The Roman Catholic Church, on the outside, was a moral, ethical, prosperous organization and religion to be apart of. It was only when they taxed the kings, who in turn taxed their citizens; when they helped surge tens of thousands to their deaths in Jerusalem; and when the Church started killing others for going against its beliefs, that we realized its not what someone advocates that is important, but the reason the "real" reason they advocate it and its underlying effect. I am definitely not saying this research is true, yet its interesting nonetheless if it was.

[RickSp]

Quote by: SteveA I'm a bit skeptical of the implicit conclusion. I think many things are due to culture clashes instead.

I am also sceptical of analysis of complex data sets which yield simple conclusions. It does not mean that the anlaysis is necessarily wrong, on the other hand if you did a regression of how many violent felons drank milk as a kids, you might find a high correlation without necessarily concluidng that milk caused violence.

That being said ithe study does counter the overly facile claim that religion is an obvious good.

[RickSp]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 I hope that's a joke. The Roman Catholic Church, on the outside, was a moral, ethical, prosperous organization and religion to be apart of. It was only when they taxed the kings, who in turn taxed their citizens; when they helped surge tens of thousands to their deaths in Jerusalem; and when the Church started killing others for going against its beliefs, that we realized its not what someone advocates that is important, but the reason the "real" reason they advocate it and its underlying effect. I am definitely not saying this research is true, yet its interesting nonetheless if it was.

Soc, do pay attention. I posed two questions in response to DN's response which I found unreasonable. I thought the sarcasm was pretty evident.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: RickSp Soc, do pay attention. I posed two questions in response to DN's response which I found unreasonable. I thought the sarcasm was pretty evident.

Sorry, I have selective reading.

[Dirty Name]

That's not a very good defense of religion. If we assume this is true, then it still equates to the same thing.

Please explain this. I don't follow.

[Dirty Name]

So you recommend the return of the Inquisition? Show the non-believers the error of their ways?

Such a ridiculous leap is on par with the equally ridiculous leap that religion is the cause of society's ills.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Dirty Name Such a ridiculous leap is on par with the equally ridiculous leap that religion is the cause of society's ills.

Sarcasm is indeed too subtle for some. Ah, well.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: RickSp From the Journal of Religion and Society. They conclude that the more religion, the worse things become. Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' Comments?

Correlation does not necessarily mean causation.

It seems that the secular and religious "communities" in the United States are drifting further and further apart from each other. That is, each is growing increasingly extreme, in part (at least) from reaction against the other.

Those who believe that, because they claim to accept Jesus Christ as "lord and savior", they have carte blanche to do whatever they want, right or wrong, are certainly not religious, in my opinion. Sadly, there seem to be many of them in the United States. Oftentimes, religion seems to be more a form of entertainment or a social club than what it had traditionally been.

The social trends we see in the United States are a direct result of a wide-scale back-turning on traditional morality. What people fail to realize is that what is happening today has happened many times before in history. Traditional morality is traditional because it embodies the accumulated experiences of all people who lived before those who are alive today. What is happening today are not only the consequences of not following that morality, but are also what led to the formation of that morality in the first place.

While the causal impetus for the current US social trends stretches back at least two centuries, the immediate source is the 1960s. Those of the "baby-boomer" generation who were involved in the "counter-culture" back then had the hubris to think that they somehow knew better than everyone else who had lived before them. They thought that deliberate actions and intentions, and articulated reasoning, could do more for society than systemic processes (so Thomas Sowell writes). As we can see today, they were wrong because they started from false premises.

Jesus taught that it's important for a man to know himself, for then he will know his limitations. It is tragic that so few remember that today.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 I hope that's a joke. The Roman Catholic Church, on the outside, was a moral, ethical, prosperous organization and religion to be apart of. It was only when they taxed the kings, who in turn taxed their citizens; when they helped surge tens of thousands to their deaths in Jerusalem; and when the Church started killing others for going against its beliefs, that we realized its not what someone advocates that is important, but the reason the "real" reason they advocate it and its underlying effect. I am definitely not saying this research is true, yet its interesting nonetheless if it was.

In other words, things turned to rot when the Church became co-opted by the State. The beginnings of that process can be traced back to the Roman emperor Constantine, who made Christianity Rome's official religion in the 4th century AD.

Politics is like a real-life version of The Matrix's Agent Smith -- everything it touches turns into a reflection of itself.

- Rob

[Starboy]

You post as if the early Roman church was not more than eager to be adopted by Constantine. That there was not a long line.

Starboy

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Starboy You post as if the early Roman church was not more than eager to be adopted by Constantine. That there was not a long line. Starboy

I'm sure many of them were. On the one hand, it meant no more persecution; on the other, it meant political co-option. To most, the fear of death wins out.

- Rob

[Starboy]

Quote by: Autolykos I'm sure many of them were. On the one hand, it meant no more persecution; on the other, it meant political co-option. To most, the fear of death wins out. - Rob

It was not the end of persecution by a long shot. It begain an era of purges, forced conversions by threat of death and cultural destruction. Not that there were not already such eras however Chritianity now had its own era of inflicted pain and suffering.

Starboy

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Starboy It was not the end of persecution by a long shot. It begain an era of purges, forced conversions by threat of death and cultural destruction. Not that there were not already such eras however Chritianity now had its own era of inflicted pain and suffering. Starboy

Instead of the Christians being persecuted, it became the "pagans" who were persecuted.

- Rob

[Dirty Name]

Sarcasm is indeed too subtle for some.

Are you suggesting that your original post was sarcastic too?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Autolykos Instead of the Christians being persecuted, it became the "pagans" who were persecuted. - Rob

More accurately they became apostates. Other non-approved Christian traditions now became heresies. Christians are Christians, when the Puritans came to America to escape persecution from other Christians they became the dominant religion in that part of the new world and then began to torture, burn and kill all dissenting views. When the early Christians gained power through Constantine they did the very same thing. People do not realize that the first amendment is in place in the constitution because at the time there were some states where it was punishable by death to be a Baptist. That putting people in stocks for not attending church was common place. Christians are the last religious group in the world that I would want involved in any government. I would much rather have Buddhists.

Starboy