What is civilizing?

[Athena]

What is civilizing?

I do not want to write so much others do not even attempt to consider the question and provide an answer. Those of you who want to claim Christianity, or another religion, is civilizing, please state what is civilinge about the religion. Those of you who want to use philosophy or concepts such as democracy, honor, integrity, human dignity, please, say where these ideas come from and how they become part of our shared consciousness. Those who want to refer to the nature of social animals, please do so!

[Starboy]

I think in order to answer this question one needs to decide what a civilization is.

Starboy

[argonak]

Civilization is caused by an overabundant food supply leading to a certain level of leisuretime for a portion of the society.

Basically, when you've got enough food so that you can make things that aren't directly neccessary to your survival, you've started a civilization.

Barbarians can have complex religions, they can have complex governments (some ancient european groups had very complicated tribal structures), and they can be powerful warriors. But if 90% of the time they're hungry and looking for food, they're not going to spend much time building magnificent cities, studying complicated mathematics, and generally improving their quality of life. They'll be stuck fighting every second of every day for survival. Its not black and white though, its more of a road, with barbarism on one side, and civilization on the other.

So basically what creates a civilization is merely the free time to consider other things than just bare survival. But this doesn't neccessarily have to extend to your entire society, and historically it ussually begins with the rich and slowly filters down to the middle class and eventually the lower class.

[Athena]

Quote by: argonak Civilization is caused by an overabundant food supply leading to a certain level of leisuretime for a portion of the society. Basically, when you've got enough food so that you can make things that aren't directly neccessary to your survival, you've started a civilization. Barbarians can have complex religions, they can have complex governments (some ancient european groups had very complicated tribal structures), and they can be powerful warriors. But if 90% of the time they're hungry and looking for food, they're not going to spend much time building magnificent cities, studying complicated mathematics, and generally improving their quality of life. They'll be stuck fighting every second of every day for survival. Its not black and white though, its more of a road, with barbarism on one side, and civilization on the other. So basically what creates a civilization is merely the free time to consider other things than just bare survival. But this doesn't neccessarily have to extend to your entire society, and historically it ussually begins with the rich and slowly filters down to the middle class and eventually the lower class.

Excellent answer, and what is frightening is, what happens to civilization when the economy collapses and once again the masses are struggling just to survive? Civilizations rise and fall. What happens when they fall?

Another thought, in my judgement street gangs are barbaric and people like Bush and Cheney are barbaric. They lack culture and are into "might makes right" thinking. What happens when the leadership of a nation is Christian, but otherwise lacks culture? How about "The New World Order"?

What started this thread, is the Christian claim that it was Christianity that civilized the world, and the ignorance of the civilizations that lasted thousands of years before Christianity. What did those ancient civilizations give us?

[xyzer]

The dictionary defines civilization as being achieved by a group of people,an area, a country, reaching a high level of culture, science and government. ergo...when a person or persons become civilized they attain those qualities however they may be defined at the time.

I don't see how Bush and Cheney figure into the mix since they are only temporary in the history of our great civilization. We had long since reached the pinnacle of good governance, scientific excellence, and a vibrant culture before they came along.Obviouly there are things we can improve on!

I would say we are a good example of a civilized country..and yet people are still bitching about things and apparently unsatisfied with our civilization.

[argonak]

I do not think any public figure has any relevent bearing on the issue. Bringing them into it only clouds the topic and offends people.

From a realistic view, if your entire civilization is made up of fully civilized people, the first barbarians you meet will tear your civilization down around your ears.

Civilization needs its own barbarians, because they're the best ones to defend it. When a roman soldier joined the legion, he put aside his civilization, and did his best to bring out the barbarian in him (to a degree). It was the only way to protect civilization.

Peace and goodwill only work against people with the same ideas. Had Ghandi faced Ghengis Khan, he would have been killed. It was only facing the brittish, who, while like anyone else were far from perfect, had a conscience that he was able to use peaceful methods to attain independence for India.

Thats why its not best to become too civilized, also reffered to as decadent.

[Athena]

Quote by: xyzer The dictionary defines civilization as being achieved by a group of people,an area, a country, reaching a high level of culture, science and government. ergo...when a person or persons become civilized they attain those qualities however they may be defined at the time. I don't see how Bush and Cheney figure into the mix since they are only temporary in the history of our great civilization. We had long since reached the pinnacle of good governance, scientific excellence, and a vibrant culture before they came along.Obviouly there are things we can improve on! I would say we are a good example of a civilized country..and yet people are still bitching about things and apparently unsatisfied with our civilization.

Would you say the same of Hitler? He doesn't matter that much because he is only temporary? I need to include argonak's thoughts here too. Germans were not made dogs, but temporarily they did horrifying things, and now the US is known for being war aggressors and torture that violates international law. I am not so sure how strong that line between civilized and barbaric really is. I see young people who don't don't understand the reason for any rules or morals. I see willingness to follow a New World Order leader. I don't see a lot of signs of culture.

Again I ask what civilizes people? What is culture. How is passed on? What did ancient civilizations contribute? Are Christians justified to believe they deserve all the credit for civilization?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Athena Are Christians justified to believe they deserve all the credit for civilization?

The Christians certainly are loopy enough to take that credit completely ignoring the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persians, Chinese, and Hindus and so on. Christians are a loud mouthed, ignorant, obnoxious lot and to me represent the nadir of civilization. Western civilization is what it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it. It shows how mankind is still able to succeed even with a very severe self imposed handicap.

Starboy

[xyzer]

Would you say the same of Hitler? He doesn't matter that much because he is only temporary?

Good point! And my answer is yes! Hitler tried to change an existing civilization and impose his distorted value system on surrounding nations.
Yep! it was only temporary..he is, long since, gone and Germany has re-civilized itself. The majority of this generation hardly even know he was around. The ruins of war have since been repaired and a new less autocratic government elected.

I'm not trying to counter historical fact and suggest that civilizations are permanent. They along with their leaders rise and fall.