We cannot get along with religon

[ghost_stalker]

The inverse of the "We couldnt get along without faith" topic.

We cannot get along with religon because:
1. Too many of them, and they all server the same purpose.
2. Decisions made by religous agencies anlog with religous beliefs can undermine the govt.
3. Religon just is widespread accepted ignorance.

[Starboy]

I would be more specific and say that we can't get along with supernatural religion. We can't get along with it because it is a throwback to a primitive, ignorant superstitious age. We live in a different age where such superstitions are no longer appropriate. We just do not explain and live our existence as if hocus pocus ruled the world anymore. To practice such beliefs makes liars out of its adherents.

Starboy

[SteveA]

People will believe, what they want to believe. You can claim something is a fact, and even "prove" it to most people but there will always be people that disagree. Even sciencists have plenty of contradictory positions. Health advice seems to change every decade (except of course to "eat healthy and exercise" ).

I don't think most people have problems with religion itself, when it's a private social matter. The issue is really with people that feel they have a right to rule over, represent, or make decisions for others without their consent and this doesn't apply to religion alone. It's just that the conflicts are most pronounced in the religious arena.

[Starboy]

I fail to see the difference between the social disaster that is occuring when people believe crazy things in private as opposed to believing it in public.

Starboy

[SteveA]

Quote by: Starboy I fail to see the difference between the social disaster that is occuring when people believe crazy things in private as opposed to believing it in public. Starboy

Because when it's private, you're not forced to participate. For example, noone can force you to go to church, yet they can force you to go to school. We don't argue over what people teach in church, but we do over public schools.

[Starboy]

SteveA, a nation of people that believed they can talk with invisible giant rabbits would be no less a disaster if they did it in private as opposed to doing it in public. The result would be the same. We would have mass insanity.

Starboy

[ghost_stalker]

Quote by: SteveA ... The issue is really with people that feel they have a right to rule over, represent, or make decisions for others without their consent and this doesn't apply to religion alone. It's just that the conflicts are most pronounced in the religious arena.

Thats what I dont like about religon, church officials feel that they can make decisions for others (their followers) about the religion desregarding the laws and standards of the govt.

For Example: Islamic terrorist agencies broadcast messages wanting the followers of that reilong to fight for them, but in no way are these agencies supported by government. Yet the people in the countries whose governments depose these acts still fight for the agenices b/c of their religous beliefs.

But that is not the only example of this, after the fall of rome the christian pope remained in power -not military power or governmental power but power over the minds of their followers. And used that power to undermine the government of that era.



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[SteveA]

You can take a lot of other large social movements and see similar problems as well, like Fascism in Germany and Marxism in Russia.

The point is when people lose sight of the individuals these groups are composed of. It's symbolism and social forces that make people believe it's ok to rain destruction on others.

We didn't see random individuals just coincidently decide go off on crusades or come up with ideas of genocide etc. These were caused by placing too much power in too few hands and leaving individual ethics/morals behind.

Just because 1,000 other people are jumping off a cliff, doesn't mean you should as well, nor does it grant anyone the right to push someone else off, yet these social views continue to wreak havoc on people daily.

Social institutions don't physically exist, they are simply symbolic representations of how we coordinate ourselves with others. You can't point to something and say it's government or religion really. It's just as easy to say the same thing about God. Government/God are almost identical from any tangible perspective yet people believe in government and "The People" as much as they do God. So who's wrong?

Here, more churches are hierarchical organization to speak the "will of God".

Most government are hierarchical organizations to speak the "will of the People".

So you guys are complaining that noone can see God and get a first hand account of what he's saying (why you'd want to follow what he said is a separate subject).

Well, the same thing is true of "the People" or "government". All there are is a bunch of people claiming to represent it and feelings they have more right to rule over others because of that representation of authority.

I'm not trying to claim that people can't follow God or government if they desire, I'm just trying to put some perspective on things so when there's a dispute over God or government, people can have a better understanding of why these disputes occur.

[SteveA]

If you point to a courthouse and say that represents "the People" or government. Then it's just as easy to point to a church and say that represents God or religion.

Whether someone did rosaries or happens to wear a badge, doesn't in itself make being ruled over by either person more desirable for people desiring to neither go to church or worship government.

The more people tolerate the ability of one group of people to "lord it" over others, is the more tolerant we become of tyranny and slavery.

For Example: Islamic terrorist agencies broadcast messages wanting the followers of that reilong to fight for them, but in no way are these agencies supported by government. Yet the people in the countries whose governments depose these acts still fight for the agenices b/c of their religous beliefs. But that is not the only example of this, after the fall of rome the christian pope remained in power -not military power or governmental power but power over the minds of their followers. And used that power to undermine the government of that era.

I think you've demonstrated the problem perfectly - governments and religions are so similar, they have been often historically one and the same :)

Just say no to tyranny

[argonak]

Quote by: Starboy SteveA, a nation of people that believed they can talk with invisible giant rabbits would be no less a disaster if they did it in private as opposed to doing it in public. The result would be the same. We would have mass insanity. Starboy

Well to begin with, if everyone but you believes in these invisible giant rabbits, would they all be considerd insane, or would you? Insanity is merely a condition of thinking where you percieve a world outside of social norms.


Secondly, if Harvey the Giant Invisible Rabbit's primary philsophy is to work very hard, always be honorable and true, love your family and your neighbor, and live a healthy life, I think you would have a very powerful, vibrant nation.

[bishop]

religion only poses a situation where you "cannot get along" when religious people try to impose their own agenda.. there are issues, such as abortion, that are not necessarily religious issues. moral issues and religious issues are commonly confused as being one in the same, when they really aren't..

that said, the problem with religion is not religion itself - it's when "religious" people attempt to impose their wills/agendas on everyone else. the religious person who doesn't bother anyone and doesn't impose his/her will on anyone is most certainly somebody you can get along with. i know many atheists, or people completely indifferent either way, that are royal sacks of shit that i know i can't get along with.

[ghost_stalker]

Quote by: bishop religion only poses a situation where you "cannot get along" when religious people try to impose their own agenda.. there are issues, such as abortion, that are not necessarily religious issues. moral issues and religious issues are commonly confused as being one in the same, when they really aren't.. that said, the problem with religion is not religion itself - it's when "religious" people attempt to impose their wills/agendas on everyone else. the religious person who doesn't bother anyone and doesn't impose his/her will on anyone is most certainly somebody you can get along with. i know many atheists, or people completely indifferent either way, that are royal sacks of shit that i know i can't get along with.

Its turee that alot of people are not made any better or any worse if they have a religon or not. But the people who follow religon become a part of that religons influence on government, politics etc.
Religon in many cases is more of a shadow-government, they put out the perception that they are there only to worship thier rediculous idols. But when you get more into the heriarchy it is more structured like a government, and tries to impose religous laws on their followers, using the money their followers pay as 'tribute' to their idol to forward their political goals, using the numbers of followers to win votes.
One man is just a pawn, used for political and economic strength for the church. And the man himself is blissfully unaware of this fact while he worships his false idol.

[Starboy]

Quote by: argonak Well to begin with, if everyone but you believes in these invisible giant rabbits, would they all be considerd insane, or would you? Insanity is merely a condition of thinking where you percieve a world outside of social norms.

There is a parable about this called the Emperor’s New Clothes. The moral of that story is that all is not well when there is mass psychosis. The problem is that people that decide to live in a dream world will still be affected by the real world and ignoring it will not make it go away. Also we will do better for ourselves if we admit to the reality of the real world and learn as much about it as we possibly can.

Secondly, if Harvey the Giant Invisible Rabbit's primary philsophy is to work very hard, always be honorable and true, love your family and your neighbor, and live a healthy life, I think you would have a very powerful, vibrant nation.

It is not the good things of a religion that makes it undesirable. Even Hitler made the trains run on time and the Germans loved him greatly. Ignoring reality because there may be some nice things about your delusion is no way to live. It is also a lot easier for some maniac to control the population if they are already trained to ignore reality and follow any dang fool that tells them what they want to hear. Gee, sounds familiar.

Starboy

[argonak]

Quote by: Starboy There is a parable about this called the Emperor’s New Clothes. The moral of that story is that all is not well when there is mass psychosis. The problem is that people that decide to live in a dream world will still be affected by the real world and ignoring it will not make it go away. Also we will do better for ourselves if we admit to the reality of the real world and learn as much about it as we possibly can.

Had everyone but the child truly been able to see the clothes, the child would have been considered insane and ignored. In the parable, reality is quite obvious. Otoh, whether or not there are supernatural forces effecting our lives has been debated for thousands of years and will be debated long after both you and I are dust. If religion is a mass psychosis, it would appear to be the normal state of the human species.

It is not the good things of a religion that makes it undesirable. Even Hitler made the trains run on time and the Germans loved him greatly. Ignoring reality because there may be some nice things about your delusion is no way to live. It is also a lot easier for some maniac to control the population if they are already trained to ignore reality and follow any dang fool that tells them what they want to hear. Gee, sounds familiar. Starboy

Humans ignore reality all the time, its how we survive. And the mythical nation of Harvey's Followers have nothing to do with hitler. Using him as an example brings up too many other isues that are irrelevent to the current discussion.

Its perfectly simple for a manaic to control any large population regardless of the situation, especially in a modern society where we get so much of our information from a television rather than actually seeing it. Very few dictators in the past century have risen to power through religious followings compared to those who have risen through military and political power grabs.

[Starboy]

argonak, I agree that the last two centures were a time a of the secular depots, however based on the fact that we are in a global war that at least for one side is religious as well as the "Christian morals" issues that has put our own religious despot in office it would indicate that the last century is over and it is back to business as usual.

Starboy

[argonak]

Quote by: Starboy argonak, I agree that the last two centures were a time a of the secular depots, however based on the fact that we are in a global war that at least for one side is religious as well as the "Christian morals" issues that has put our own religious despot in office it would indicate that the last century is over and it is back to business as usual. Starboy

The election was legal, and followed a system set in place more than two hundred years ago. Simply declaring someone a despot doesn't make it true.

As this is taking place in only one country in the entire world, I don't think its any sort of trend. In fact considering the steady decline of religion in western civilization I would say the opposite. Islam is one of the few religions currently growing in the western world, mostly because it is viewed as being under attack. Which has always been a far greater boon than hinder to religions.

China, certainly one of the most powerful nations in the modern world with a long and diverse history cannot be considered a "religious" nation, and they continue to exist as a tyrranical regime. Does this convict all aethism and secularists as evil supporters of Totalitarianism?

[Starboy]

I never said it wasn't legit, only that religion is back in the saddle of the US government. And the war is global. Muslims are everywhere.

Starboy

[Osborn F Enready]

Great thread, and great inputs.

I am still not ready to post on topic though. Can't find the words I am looking for yet.