Pure Objectivity Unrealistic?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

How is true objectivism unrealistic? How is not being biased impossible? I've heard this too many times. If you know you have a bias, then simply choose not to have it, do you still have it nonetheless? Is pure objectivity forever impossible by a thinking lifeform?

[Athena]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 How is true objectivism unrealistic? How is not being biased impossible? I've heard this too many times. If you know you have a bias, then simply choose not to have it, do you still have it nonetheless? Is pure objectivity forever impossible by a thinking lifeform?

Yes, because the individual can know only a tiny piece of the whole, can have only a point of view, and can never achieve a vision of the whole other than that little point of view.

[Boetie]

Athena posts ...because the individual can know only a tiny piece of the whole, can have only a point of view...

I would agree that the above applies to a great majority of the masses.

Athena posts ..and can never achieve a vision of the whole other than that little point of view.

That last line I would disagree with to a certain extend. I would agree with the "can never achieve" in the sense one thinks that by thought they can do it. But what is there to say a person couldn't be one lucky person in which the whole smashes through thought and then uses the brain? True many will claim this but we can dismiss them as kooks, yet what if it happened to you? How could you communicate it? you couldn't that's for sure. So if it happened to you, you will know the real meaning of "secret"

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Athena Yes, because the individual can know only a tiny piece of the whole, can have only a point of view, and can never achieve a vision of the whole other than that little point of view.

Since humans create everything, does that mean all of our creations are subjective too? Nothing exists except opinion? What if all of the points of view are gathered together and perfected to create an objective view? Can it ever get there? Do you need everyone's view or just the majority of them?

[Jack]

But what is there to say a person couldn't be one lucky person in which the whole smashes through thought and then uses the brain?

Lucky, or maybe intended. Many Eastern religions and a few Western ones allow for enlightenment, satori, an awakening, without any supernatural miracles involved. Especially satori, which involves being able to see the whole as well as the parts, what could be called objectivity.

But true objectivity for the average human? I suspect it's rare.

[SteveA]

I apologize ahead of time but I just wanted to have a little fun with this so skip the rest if you're looking for something serious

I agree that relative to each other, noone will appear objective because everyone has a different viewpoint but that's off course my subjective view. I can't see things from someone elses view or any third person perspective so I can't truly claim for certain that other people aren't objective because that's just my subjective opinion.

If we assume noone can see anything other than "existance" from their specific viewpoint and not from an arbitrary alternate or multiple perspectives, isn't that the most objective view they can have?

To reword the last part, if we believe people can only see things from their own perspective, isn't the most unbiased view they could have be first-person-center? If they were to attempt to take an alternate perspective, and we believed this was impossible, then from our subjective view their attempted objective view would be no more objective, and in some senses less objective (as it would be subjected to their subjective view of objectivity), than if they took the more objective view (in my subjective opinion) that they couldn't truly be objective and instead relied on their subjective view as being the closest they could achieve to being objective!

I dare someone to repeat that 3 times fast.

Feel free to object to being subjected to that.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Isherwood Lucky, or maybe intended. Many Eastern religions and a few Western ones allow for enlightenment, satori, an awakening, without any supernatural miracles involved. Especially satori, which involves being able to see the whole as well as the parts, what could be called objectivity. But true objectivity for the average human? I suspect it's rare.

Rare, but possible. If you know what bias exists, then wouldn't you not have a bias and therefore be objective?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

lol Steve, looks like a brain buster, I'll be sure to read it tomorrow morning!

[belverron]

You can only practice objectivity with respect to what you believe to be true.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Since humans create everything, does that mean all of our creations are subjective too? Nothing exists except opinion? What if all of the points of view are gathered together and perfected to create an objective view? Can it ever get there? Do you need everyone's view or just the majority of them?

I am not sure if we can ever get there. However our solution to the problem is to compare notes with each other. It is what we do natually. But we do understand deep down that we do not have an objective view. One of the attributes of our concept of a perfect being is to be all knowing.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

I've said many times on this forum that pure ojectivity is the dillusion of the hopelessly biased. Only by conciously recognizing and correcting for your own biases can you hope to aproach objectivity.

Who we are is so deeply engrained, that many of our paridigmes are inescapable. It is imperetive to search for your own personal biases and admit them. Even when that is done, you always must include some degree of uncertainty and tolerance in your opinions to account for the simple fact that you don't allways have all of the facts, or may not have interpritind them correctly.

[Boetie]

Isherwood posts Many Eastern religions and a few Western ones

But those are based on thought. Thought has it's own energy which is a fragment. The hardest thing to do is to not decieve oneself and thought is doing this all the time. I was not implying the supernatural when I suggested the possiblility that the whole uses the brain. When a train is coming your way do you think or do you get the hell out of the way. That act of getting out of the way is the whole because thinking ceased.

[Athena]

Quote by: Boetie I would agree that the above applies to a great majority of the masses. That last line I would disagree with to a certain extend. I would agree with the "can never achieve" in the sense one thinks that by thought they can do it. But what is there to say a person couldn't be one lucky person in which the whole smashes through thought and then uses the brain? True many will claim this but we can dismiss them as kooks, yet what if it happened to you? How could you communicate it? you couldn't that's for sure. So if it happened to you, you will know the real meaning of "secret"

That sounds like a sincere question to me. Let's assume in a flash second my consciousness becomes aware of everything Einstien knew. Would I understand it any better than the books about his theory? I don't think so. I have a very stuborn brain! There's a whole bunch of stuff my brain just won't make sense out of. Have you ever tried to read public policy or legal papers? I feel like a complete idiot knowing I know the words, but damned if I can figure out the meaning of what is written. It would be nice if my brain would handle more information but it won't. I would like to speak and think Chinese but I can't even learn to speak with a Mexican neighbor who tries to teach me. I suppose if I suddenly had all of Einstien's thoughts in my my head, I would really be an idiot, with thoughts I do not understand chasing each other around in my head. I have a hard time with much less information. Now Einstien was just another human being. If the flash of awareness were everything in the universal mind, knowledge of the whole universe and beyond, for sure my brain would be fried! I wouldn't even be able to read children's books after that.

That said, I have transcended. Ah, had a spontaneous, intuitive glimpse of spiritual reality.
I did not become all knowing. I simply concluded my opnion of myself as separate from the rest of that which is, is a delusion. That shoots self importance all to blazes. In the bigger picture of things our individual lives don't matter that much. Like the importance of knowing everything, isn't important because we are that everything.

What if one cell in your body jumped up and demanded to be recognized as the supreme cell of your whole body? Like shut up cell, I am in charge here. But who am I? How are we different from the cell in the body in relation to the greater reality? We are at least part of the consciousness of this momemt, but our minds are very limited and can not know all things. My life is about as full of my life as I can handle. I am sure I couldn't handle Einstien or God consciousness in my head.

[Athena]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Since humans create everything, does that mean all of our creations are subjective too? Nothing exists except opinion? What if all of the points of view are gathered together and perfected to create an objective view? Can it ever get there? Do you need everyone's view or just the majority of them?

May be I don't understand your intended meaning. I don't think humans create everything.
We pretty much respond to what already is. Well we malnipulate a lot of matter to suit ourselves, but we didn't make the universe. I created my kids I guess, but they stopped being subjective to me in their teens.

I think your statement that nothing exist except our opinions, is a philosophical statement.
However, you might test that idea. Stand about two feet in front of a brick wall and try to put your fist throw it. I think will notice something because your opinion is there.

I don't know if it is the hour of the night, or the several hours I have been reading post and rresponding to them, but I feel like my brain is melting down and about to run out my ear.
Forgive me if I have stopped making sense. I think it is time for me lie down and rechrage my batteries.