thinking about death

[randall patrick]

For years now I have been perusing many attempts by others to communicate thoughts and feelings about death. Yet if my life depended on it I could not explain what I think they mean to another. They would read it and shake their heads in exasperation or despair no doubt. Few things are more inexpressibly private or enigmatically solipsistic.

But I have just read a chapter in the anthology Death and Philosophy and it reminds me in an ineffably visceral manner of what I think some are trying to say to me. It is called "Against Death: The Case of Elias Canetti" by Richard Steiner.

Here are a couple of passages from Canetti:

"People always ask what you mean when you rail against death. They want the cheap hopes from you that are droned about in religions ad nauseum. But I know nothing. I have nothing to say about it. My character, my pride consist in never having flattered death. Like everyone else, I have sometimes, very seldom, wished for it, but no man has ever heard me praising death, no one can say that I have bowed to it, that I have acknowledged or whitewashed death. I find it as useless and as evil as ever, the basic ill of all existence, the unresolved and the incomprehensible, the knot in which everything has always been tied and that no one has ever dared to chop up."

And:

"But what do you gain by the ceaseless wakefulness of this consciousness of death? Does it make you stronger? Does it help you to protect others who are in danger? Do you give anyone encouragment by always thinking about it? This whole enormous apparatus that you have erected serves no purpose. It doesn't save anyone. It gives a false appearanvce of strenght, no more than a boast, and is from beginning to end as helpless as any other scheme. The truth is that you have not yet found out what would be the right and valid and hunanly useful attitude. You haven't gone beyond saying no. But I curse death. I can't help it. And if I should go blind in the process, I can't help it, I repulse death with all my strenght. If I accepted it, I would be a murderer."


For me however it never goes down that deep into the heights of philosophical despair. It is a rather simple psychological transaction. I have found things in this world that [for whatever reason] I have come to love and to cherish---music, film, books, photography, philosophy etc.. And death will take these intimate relationships away for eternity and that horrifies me. But increasingly I bump into things [I either know of or experience] that cause pain and suffering. And death will also takes them away for eternity. It is simply an existential [meaning intensely personal] balance that tilts back and forth from day to day. Beyond that I see no point in dwelling on it. Only in distracting myself from it instead. And that is what I do.

Though not now, of course


rp

[Logjam]

I don't know what happens after we die. But what I do know is that when you watch someone die it's a very dramatic experience. It's so sad. So personal. It's a little bit embarrassing for the person watching. It's such an important moment for the person who is dying, it seems like they'd better like being alone.

After death the person is not a person. They are dead. They are treated like filth by the morturary people. They come in and snap on plastic gloves and stuff the body into a plastic bag and zip it up.

I've only been with one person when they died; breathed their last. I just missed watching my mom die.....I left the room. I couldn't stand it.

It seems to me that people fight dieing. In those who I have watched they all act about the same. Unless, I suppose they are in pain. Neither my mom or dad were in pain.

I wonder if they were conscious just before they died. I hope not, but I'm not sure. They seem to want to hold on. My dad, however; said; "Don't touch me, this is something I have to do". He wanted to be left alone so that he could sleep.

They go through this chain stokes (I may have that wrong, it sounds like that.) breathing. It's like a gulp and a gasp. It can go on for days. They can be asleep while doing this labored breathing, or they can be awake. My mom said to me, "That bothers you doesn't it?" It has bothered her when my dad was doing it almost exactly two years earlier.

When one dies, one is gone. It's very obvious to the observer. Does ones spirit go someplace? I just don't know. But I do feel sometimes that I'm being revisited by my parents. But maybe I'm just wishing that they would. I'd love to be haunted by them.

[Athena]

I am fascinated by the shows "Crossing Over" and "Beyond". Each one is done by a man who appears to have communication with the deceased. This is different from the TV shows with written scripts and actors that seem pretty stupid to me. I believe we continue to exist, that death is passing threw a time diminsion. This necessitates being careful with the dead, oursleves and everything else. Like it would be the pits to be dead and aware of a loved one suffering, so we need to handle our lives well.

I think reincarnation is great justice, far better than heaven or hell justice. Reincarntion played a part in the democracy of Athens. You come back to the good or bad you leave behind. Believing this, it just makes sense that one does what will be best for future generations, because that is what one comes back to. So today we don't cut down all the trees, and fish the oceans until our favorite sea food is gone. We make political decisions that will be good ones regardless of which station of life we might born into.

I also live as though, how I live will determine my future. Future being where I end up when I give up this body. I want to be with philosophical souls, so I study philosophy and everything related to being human. But then I figure my life this time around is pretty much over. I did the family thing, and the work thing, and the political activist thing. My body isn't so good any more and I look forward to getting a new one. I also look forward to doing this life thing all over again, with a fresh start. Like now I can really appreciate coming back without a memory of who I was, because I've done this life and want to do a different one next time. Kind of like getting new computer games when we get bored with the ones we already have. It wouldn't be a new life if we came back with the memory of our old one.

[randall patrick]

Quote by: Athena I am fascinated by the shows "Crossing Over" and "Beyond". Each one is done by a man who appears to have communication with the deceased. This is different from the TV shows with written scripts and actors that seem pretty stupid to me. I believe we continue to exist, that death is passing threw a time diminsion. This necessitates being careful with the dead, oursleves and everything else. Like it would be the pits to be dead and aware of a loved one suffering, so we need to handle our lives well. I think reincarnation is great justice, far better than heaven or hell justice. Reincarntion played a part in the democracy of Athens. You come back to the good or bad you leave behind. Believing this, it just makes sense that one does what will be best for future generations, because that is what one comes back to. So today we don't cut down all the trees, and fish the oceans until our favorite sea food is gone. We make political decisions that will be good ones regardless of which station of life we might born into. I also live as though, how I live will determine my future. Future being where I end up when I give up this body. I want to be with philosophical souls, so I study philosophy and everything related to being human. But then I figure my life this time around is pretty much over. I did the family thing, and the work thing, and the political activist thing. My body isn't so good any more and I look forward to getting a new one. I also look forward to doing this life thing all over again, with a fresh start. Like now I can really appreciate coming back without a memory of who I was, because I've done this life and want to do a different one next time. Kind of like getting new computers when we get bored with the ones we already have. It wouldn't be a new life if we came back with the memory of our old one.

This in my opinion is a classic manifestation of the psychological defense mechanism. You see what you believe. And you believe that which you want to be true. And you want it to be true because if it is true it comforts you to beleive it. But sooner or later you have instantiate your beliefs with something analogous to empirical or experiental evidence.

Do you have any?


rp

[Athena]

Quote by: randall patrick This in my opinion is a classic manifestation of the psychological defense mechanism. You see what you believe. And you believe that which you want to be true. And you want it to be true because if it is true it comforts you to beleive it. But sooner or later you have instantiate your beliefs with something analogous to empirical or experiental evidence. Do you have any? rp

You mean like a memory of a past life? I would say how I came to that memory was unexpected and therefore impressive. Now if I were building a bridge or designing a space ship, or planning public policy, empirical information would be important. But why press someone for empirical information about a belief you can completely ignore if you like? Or if you are interested, Hinduism provides an explanation. I can come up with scientific information if you are sincere, but that is a lot of work if you only want to argue. Otherwise, I am just being pragmatic, going with a belief that works for me, a whole lot better than see anyone else's working for them. Nice thing about being pragmatic is doesn't matter if what I think is possible is possible or not. When a person is pragmatic as long as a belief works, it is good enough.

[Athena]

Children's Past Lives Research Center
http://www.childpastlives.org/

The Scientific Theory of the Soul It opens up the areas of past-life-recall and out-of-body experiences to rigorous scientific research and it also enables science to study all manner of ...
science.krishna.org/Articles/2004/05/006.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages


Research Findings Establish Reincarnation as a Scientific Fact This controversial statement is backed by thirty five years of research by an ... It was easy to do and any scientific mind can duplicate my findings, ...
science.krishna.org/Articles/2001/12/008.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages


Edgar Cayce's books are pretty impressive. They may not be empirically proven, but niether is the account of his life's work disproven.

[Kuldeep]

Thinking about death

I do not think there can be any living being, human in particular who has not thought about his or other's death.

Before, I place my view about death here in. I would like to narrate the conversation between the Yakhsha (One deity) and Yudishtra( the eldest brother of Pandvas of Mahabharat epic). The diety asked Yudishtra: what is strangest thing in the world? Yudishtra replied that the strangest thing in the world is that everybody dies but nobody in the heart of hearts gets even slightest glimpse of imagination that he would also die.

I have driven a straight forward conclusion from this strange factual reply of Yudishtra that "Actually nobody dies that is why in spite of seeing every body dying, nobody feels he would also die"

In fact, we fear death since we are seeing others dying. There is hardly anybody who has seen his own death. Some references as given by Athena about children rebirth and near death experiences have beyond doubt proved our existence remains in tact even after physical death. I have some other proofs to support the statement, but it is going to late. So would be put later on!

[Nono]

Yeah, good old Elias Canetti!

Quote by: Athena I think reincarnation is great justice, far better than heaven or hell justice.

Which is probably why karmic religion is so popular, also suspect when being peddled by the Establishment. Wouldn't it be great if there really were some sort of divine justice. Beware wishful thinking.

So today we don't cut down all the trees, and fish the oceans until our favorite sea food is gone. We make political decisions that will be good ones regardless of which station of life we might born into.

At the same time, say I'm rich and privileged (in India, to take a classic example) and you're dirt poor. And I say to you "Well, I'm the way I am because I was virtuous in a previous life. You're the way you are because you weren't." Being a good devout Hindu, you'll let me continue to rule over you. Convenient, eh?

Reincarnation? Why not? I have absolutely no idea. But since I know that wishful thinking can play tricks on you, I do my best to be objective.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: randall patrick thinking about death

Like a fallen leaf that closes "the circut", we most likely follow a similar path by complying with "all the laws" in the world we live-in.

When a time comes, a leaf gives away its own carotene - (that is why a leaf changes its color from green to red, mostly seen in autumn), in order to support a tree and prolong that tree's existance. That leaf's energy is being transformmed into another one, in order to upkeep the balance in this world, since the world we live-in is based on an "opposition law", while the balance must be upkept. Otherwise, the world we live-in does not exist.
Just like a magnet. It can not exist with 1 value, only. In order to appear (in the world we live-in), it must contain 2 opposite values. Otherwise, there is no magnet.
Like a water boiled to a certain temperature, transforms itself into a different state and becomes a steam. Just like us - Homo Sappiens, we give away (read : transform) our energy in this world we live-in, and enter a different world and/or dimension, in order to upkeep the balance and continue that "journey" as a different state in a different environment.
(And that is the answer why nobody can come back and communicate with us again, since they have changed their state. Few somehow return and re-appear what can be taken as a result of distrubances between different worlds and/or dimensions, and we call those few as "ghosts")

The friction creates this world and that whole environment, along with actions and re-actions. That is why we should rather seek the answers for "life and death" within physics, instead of philosophy. The discipline of philosophy along with theology may direct out attempts in search for answers onto that path. It is being dictated by our spiritual side that is part of us.

What is "death" ? or what happens after "death" ?
No clue :-)))
I wish I was able to read a single "atom", that carries a data. I have all the answers to what happened, what is happening and what will happen (most likely) in the world we live-in (at least).

P.S.
I believe that one day we would develope a "detector" that can read a single particle and data collected throughout its journey. That give us enourmous ammount of informations on the world we live-in, along with all the events that took place.
In case of today, a breakthrou in science and technology would allow us to read "gamma waves" (read : read a man's brain, thoughts, ect.) Try to imagine the outcomes :-)))

[northtexan]

Quote by: randall patrick For years now I have been perusing many attempts by others to communicate thoughts and feelings about death. Yet if my life depended on it I could not explain what I think they mean to another. They would read it and shake their heads in exasperation or despair no doubt. Few things are more inexpressibly private or enigmatically solipsistic. But I have just read a chapter in the anthology Death and Philosophy and it reminds me in an ineffably visceral manner of what I think some are trying to say to me. It is called "Against Death: The Case of Elias Canetti" by Richard Steiner. Here are a couple of passages from Canetti: "People always ask what you mean when you rail against death. They want the cheap hopes from you that are droned about in religions ad nauseum. But I know nothing. I have nothing to say about it. My character, my pride consist in never having flattered death. Like everyone else, I have sometimes, very seldom, wished for it, but no man has ever heard me praising death, no one can say that I have bowed to it, that I have acknowledged or whitewashed death. I find it as useless and as evil as ever, the basic ill of all existence, the unresolved and the incomprehensible, the knot in which everything has always been tied and that no one has ever dared to chop up." And: "But what do you gain by the ceaseless wakefulness of this consciousness of death? Does it make you stronger? Does it help you to protect others who are in danger? Do you give anyone encouragment by always thinking about it? This whole enormous apparatus that you have erected serves no purpose. It doesn't save anyone. It gives a false appearanvce of strenght, no more than a boast, and is from beginning to end as helpless as any other scheme. The truth is that you have not yet found out what would be the right and valid and hunanly useful attitude. You haven't gone beyond saying no. But I curse death. I can't help it. And if I should go blind in the process, I can't help it, I repulse death with all my strenght. If I accepted it, I would be a murderer." For me however it never goes down that deep into the heights of philosophical despair. It is a rather simple psychological transaction. I have found things in this world that [for whatever reason] I have come to love and to cherish---music, film, books, photography, philosophy etc.. And death will take these intimate relationships away for eternity and that horrifies me. But increasingly I bump into things [I either know of or experience] that cause pain and suffering. And death will also takes them away for eternity. It is simply an existential [meaning intensely personal] balance that tilts back and forth from day to day. Beyond that I see no point in dwelling on it. Only in distracting myself from it instead. And that is what I do. Though not now, of course rp

Is this beating a d__d horse, or what?

Actually, some people, for example hospice workers, need to deal with death in positive ways, and they seem to be able to do so.

Quote by: Nono Yeah, good old Elias Canetti! Which is probably why karmic religion is so popular, also suspect when being peddled by the Establishment. Wouldn't it be great if there really were some sort of divine justice. Beware wishful thinking. At the same time, say I'm rich and privileged (in India, to take a classic example) and you're dirt poor. And I say to you "Well, I'm the way I am because I was virtuous in a previous life. You're the way you are because you weren't." Being a good devout Hindu, you'll let me continue to rule over you. Convenient, eh? Reincarnation? Why not? I have absolutely no idea. But since I know that wishful thinking can play tricks on you, I do my best to be objective.

Try reading 'The Years of Rice and Salt': http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books. It's a wonderful science fiction book that follows the same 'souls' over mutliple reincarnations over the years in an alternate world to ours. I don't care whether Kim Stanley Robinson himself believes in reincarnation, his book makes reincarnation come to life, so to speak. And I figure that science fiction represents about as strong an analysis that the concept of reincarnation can get, so it's the place to go.

[Athena]

Quote by: Nono Yeah, good old Elias Canetti! Which is probably why karmic religion is so popular, also suspect when being peddled by the Establishment. Wouldn't it be great if there really were some sort of divine justice. Beware wishful thinking. At the same time, say I'm rich and privileged (in India, to take a classic example) and you're dirt poor. And I say to you "Well, I'm the way I am because I was virtuous in a previous life. You're the way you are because you weren't." Being a good devout Hindu, you'll let me continue to rule over you. Convenient, eh? Reincarnation? Why not? I have absolutely no idea. But since I know that wishful thinking can play tricks on you, I do my best to be objective.

Well I have tasted life, and I think I rather have a good fantasy.

[Athena]

Quote by: Rainbow Like a fallen leaf that closes "the circut", we most likely follow a similar path by complying with "all the laws" in the world we live-in. When a time comes, a leaf gives away its own carotene - (that is why a leaf changes its color from green to red, mostly seen in autumn), in order to support a tree and prolong that tree's existance. That leaf's energy is being transformmed into another one, in order to upkeep the balance in this world, since the world we live-in is based on an "opposition law", while the balance must be upkept. Otherwise, the world we live-in does not exist. Just like a magnet. It can not exist with 1 value, only. In order to appear (in the world we live-in), it must contain 2 opposite values. Otherwise, there is no magnet. Like a water boiled to a certain temperature, transforms itself into a different state and becomes a steam. Just like us - Homo Sappiens, we give away (read : transform) our energy in this world we live-in, and enter a different world and/or dimension, in order to upkeep the balance and continue that "journey" as a different state in a different environment. (And that is the answer why nobody can come back and communicate with us again, since they have changed their state. Few somehow return and re-appear what can be taken as a result of distrubances between different worlds and/or dimensions, and we call those few as "ghosts") The friction creates this world and that whole environment, along with actions and re-actions. That is why we should rather seek the answers for "life and death" within physics, instead of philosophy. The discipline of philosophy along with theology may direct out attempts in search for answers onto that path. It is being dictated by our spiritual side that is part of us. What is "death" ? or what happens after "death" ? No clue :-))) I wish I was able to read a single "atom", that carries a data. I have all the answers to what happened, what is happening and what will happen (most likely) in the world we live-in (at least). P.S. I believe that one day we would develope a "detector" that can read a single particle and data collected throughout its journey. That give us enourmous ammount of informations on the world we live-in, along with all the events that took place. In case of today, a breakthrou in science and technology would allow us to read "gamma waves" (read : read a man's brain, thoughts, ect.) Try to imagine the outcomes :-)))

Yes, I prefer looking to science when possible, but not expect it to explain all things. If we knew everything, it would be like finishing a book. Reading a book is fun because we do not know something and hope to find it in the reading, but once we know all a book has to offer, it is not longer fun reading it. Then instead of it being one death, to enjoy a new life, all of existence would have to stop, erasing all that is known, to start the game of life over again. Who knows, we could be there? One way or another, we are in for a radical change of consciousness in the immediate future. We can not continue as we have done, because the planet can no longer support that. The fire of life is now consuming the last of what is left to consume.

Before closing, it appears someone close to me will be dying a painful death. I hope my thoughts on this can be shared if I feel moved to say something.

[Logjam]

As I said earlier; I don't know what happens when we die. It's very likely that nothing happens. After we kick, we've kicked. If we go somewhere else then don't all beings who have died also go there? Is heaven a place or is it a construct of the mind?

What is absolutely true, is that no matter what we believe about death, we all will one day; in one instant, experience it. Then we'll know. Or we won't.

I think it's best not to worry about it. It'll happen soon enough, it's best that we learn to live and appreciate our lives then it is to be obsessed by the ending.

[randall patrick]

Quote by: Athena You mean like a memory of a past life? I would say how I came to that memory was unexpected and therefore impressive. Now if I were building a bridge or designing a space ship, or planning public policy, empirical information would be important. But why press someone for empirical information about a belief you can completely ignore if you like? Or if you are interested, Hinduism provides an explanation. I can come up with scientific information if you are sincere, but that is a lot of work if you only want to argue. Otherwise, I am just being pragmatic, going with a belief that works for me, a whole lot better than see anyone else's working for them. Nice thing about being pragmatic is doesn't matter if what I think is possible is possible or not. When a person is pragmatic as long as a belief works, it is good enough.

Yes, you have confirmed what I suspected. It is a belief that consoles you. It works for all practical purposes; and in the end for each individual a strategy is generaly devised for living in a world of unrelenting contingency, chance and change.

I was hoping perhaps for a little more of what some call "hard evidence". Then perhaps I could figure out a way to rationalize oblivion myself.

rp

[Athena]

Can we expand this subject of death? They have identified the body found in the river. He was a regular at the low income alchohol and drug rehabilitation, and the people who worked there are grieving his passing, although they knew it was coming soon. Some addicts have spent every night of lives at this rehab place for years, and he was one of them. Please, do not judge, because you honestly do not know these people and want brought them here, and those who do know them well, love them despite all their human imperfections. These are the people who staff the rehab center, and when their clients are rolled and beaten up, or treated badly by the police, they hurt for their clients.

The story of the man found in the river is like the story of Job. He had all the forms of hepitis, and other health problems. By age 50 his close to death. It is not known if he took his own life or if he was rolled for the money in his pocket. He had told a concerned worker he would be going sooner then expected. She knew how bad his health was. But this is not the first rehab client to be found in the river. So far it isn't known how he could have gotten to this spot on the river because he had no transportation and couldn't walk that far. It is known their are people who prey on these vulnerable people. Their reality isn't a beauty one.

What matters is that although he had serious social problems and was gruff and diseased, and many, including Springfeild police could not tolerate him, there were others who loved him and cared about him, and now cry in grief. Caring about this man, and grieving because his bed is now empty, may not make sense to many. I just want people to know, he is missed and people are grieving.

Meaning of life? I don't know. I just know sometimes our lives come together and it hurts when they are torn apart. I know people can care about people who many would see as total social rejects, and we don't have to be smart or rich or beautiful for others to care about us and our passing. If humans can be this accepting and caring of others, don't you think a God would be as loving? That is if there is one? We don't need to be worshipped to care this much about another, we just do because that is how we are.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

When I think of death I get very scared. I don't understand why religious people (if they aren't "faking it") are even afraid of death. They are always promised some eternal heaven or afterlife where everything is perfect. As an atheist, I know the truth is that my body will disintegrate and my brain will shut down, no longer able to function with the world. Will I be sad? No. I'll be dead. But up to that point, I'll be very depressed that I cannot live forever. If I had one wish in the world that would be it. To see what happens next, forever. Some say you would get tired of it, but I know for a fact I would not. Or otherwise I wouldn't be so afraid of dying. It's such an interesting concept, that of life and death and all the feelings humans can relate to on the subject.

[Athena]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 When I think of death I get very scared. I don't understand why religious people (if they aren't "faking it") are even afraid of death. They are always promised some eternal heaven or afterlife where everything is perfect. As an atheist, I know the truth is that my body will disintegrate and my brain will shut down, no longer able to function with the world. Will I be sad? No. I'll be dead. But up to that point, I'll be very depressed that I cannot live forever. If I had one wish in the world that would be it. To see what happens next, forever. Some say you would get tired of it, but I know for a fact I would not. Or otherwise I wouldn't be so afraid of dying. It's such an interesting concept, that of life and death and all the feelings humans can relate to on the subject.

Your comment on death, reminds me of what I have seen of life and old age. What we think about dying is directly related to how old we are and our life dreams. By 80 the starts shutting down. The bible says we should have 120 years and some do live that long. These people are the fortunate few with unusually long good health. Perhaps more of us could achieve that, but not without effort.

To get to the point- when our families are raised, when we have done the career and whatever else was our life agenda, our lives become what we done, no longer what we have to do. Depending on your body, getting out of bed can be painful challenge, and your energy level may be so low, you just loose interest in doing things. Driving at night can become too challenging, and along with low enery, the idea of going out at night is no fun. I guess I am saying, before we die, we can loosing interest in living. The grandchildren can be an important part of our lives, but the great grandchildren along with the low energy, become more distant. The time comes when peace and quite and not having pain seems the most desirable. Then add to this pnumonia and getting out of bed to go to the bathroom is just too much. Cancer, going deaf and blind, etc. can make life too unpleasant, leaving us a peaceful death as the only thing to look forward to.

If you want things to go better for you, avoid drugs and alcohol and junk food. Take care of you eat and eat well. This includes learning what foods you should eat and eating them. Exercise often. Sleep about 8 hours a night. Avoid chemicals, even ones that can be absorbed by the skin and cause cancer. Get spiritual and deliberately work on your happiness. Mediation is a good thing. Hinduism and yoga have much to offer.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said:
If you want things to go better for you, avoid drugs and alcohol and junk food. Take care of you eat and eat well. This includes learning what foods you should eat and eating them. Exercise often. Sleep about 8 hours a night. Avoid chemicals, even ones that can be absorbed by the skin and cause cancer. Get spiritual and deliberately work on your happiness. Mediation is a good thing. Hinduism and yoga have much to offer.


I say:
Spare me. What works for one, won't work for EVERYone. We each have to find our own inner balance, discover if we do, or could beleive in a God. Our body chemistries are all different as are our needs, and our requirement for satisfaction in EVERY aspect of life.

This is NOT a one size fits all world.

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Athena said: If you want things to go better for you, avoid drugs and alcohol and junk food. Take care of you eat and eat well. This includes learning what foods you should eat and eating them. Exercise often. Sleep about 8 hours a night. Avoid chemicals, even ones that can be absorbed by the skin and cause cancer. Get spiritual and deliberately work on your happiness. Mediation is a good thing. Hinduism and yoga have much to offer. I say: Spare me. What works for one, won't work for EVERYone. We each have to find our own inner balance, discover if we do, or could beleive in a God. Our body chemistries are all different as are our needs, and our requirement for satisfaction in EVERY aspect of life. This is NOT a one size fits all world.

Considering the problem with Social Security, I don't understand why our government doesn't promote smoking. Most smokers have productive lives and it isn't until they get older when old age problems set in, that the health cost of smoking becomes obvious. Considering they are out dated, and have health issues, it is a good thing they die off. We should have millions of dollars on Social Security by promoting those things that kill people when they are less useful.

I was writing only for those who want to postpone their deaths for as long as possible. I agree this isn't for everyone. I chided a doctor for smoking and he related this story to me:

"A man aked a doctor how he could live to be a hundred, and the doctor said, don't smoke, drink or sleep around with loose women." "Will that really make me live to be a hundred", the man asked. "No', replied the doctor, "But you will sure feel like it".

[samsara15]

I can relate to reincarnation, as long as we dump the assumption that concsiousness is eternal and never stops, so that maybe we could live again in some future universe...but not continually...after all, most of us remember nothing before birth, and those of us who claim to remember anything before birth are dubious sources, from what I have read about them...

I sure don't want to live forever, am currently 64 and think 75 would be long enough, but intend to enjoy life until it ends, without forcing myself to live a puritanical, ascetic lifestyle not enjoyable to me.