In Search Of God...

[LogicaLunatic]

This topic is a reply to a post made by PatrickHenry in 'Satan and Control...

You were asked...

"How can suffering and [your definition of] God co-exist?"

Quote by: PatrickHenry God allows some things He doesn't like to exist. That's the only way He can allow free will. Is this too big a concept to wrap your finite mind around, Disinterested? Not for me... It all redounds to His Power and Glory.

Now, I completely agree that for a God to grant his created beings free will he MUST allow them to do evil. Yes, that God perhaps loves us so much that he's willing to let us make BAD decisions.

But, suffering is not only caused by human evil. In fact, it's likely that most suffering is the result of un-aligned natural causes such as hurricanes and earthquakes.

Now, you said that God allows some things he doesn't like because it's the only way to allow free will. I need you to explain to me how free will would be affected if natural disasters never occured.

If the disappearance of natural disasters actually would NOT have an effect on free will then the question posted by Disinterested is still awaiting an anwer given the fact that natural disasters also cause great suffering.

Keep in mind that I'm not questioning whether god exists or not, only the logical validity of your belief in HOW god exists. Namely, that your God loves us yet allows us to suffer anyway.

Some possible responses...

1) God loves us, yes, but our suffering is a test of faith. This would only make sense if your God were insecure and actually UNABLE to tell how faithful we were.

2) God loves us, yes, and our suffering leads to personal growth and strengthens our faith. Really, an all knowing god could think of other less sadistic ways to strengthen our faith and help us grow strong. That's like a father beating his son because it will 'build' character or a husband threatening a wife so that she'll stay with him. If God is actually just an abusive bully then I'd rather not have anything to do with him.

Why I'm posting this question...

I have two reasons for asking this of you...

1) You seem like a logical person (hell, you're a libertarian) so you MUST have thought this through. Given that and the fact that you DO believe you must have come to some logical conclusion that irons out these apparent inconsistencies. If that LOGICAL conclusion is out there somewhere, I want to be able to get there myself. I'm an atheist but I would in fact LIKE to believe in god but so far, I haven't heard a single logical reason to.

2) I have an extremely difficult time with the type of people that would thank your God for 'saving' them from some random accident or natural disaster when He could just as easily stopped the entire thing.

You also claim that this board is so atheist that it's rare that your viewpoints are understood. That may or may not be true but I personally vow to fully accept your points so long as they are logical.

Thanks!

LogicaLunatic

[PatrickHenry]

LL, you seem a bit hostile to the concept of God, labeling Him either "insecure, sadistic or an abusive bully." So I can see that I am starting from a hole with you, not really a flat level playing field. I understand why some folks feel that way, having been treated disrespectfully by Christians without any tact. But okay, hombre. I accept the challenge and the logical framework. Natural disasters are on everyone's mind just now because of the Katrina catastrophe. But of course, storms aren't the only things that cause misery and kill us. There are plenty of other natural phenomena that hurt, too, from cancer to Jaws to uncontrolled gravity. But if I have your question right, you are asking why would a benevolent God allow any hurtful things to naturally occur to those He loves. Is this it?

One of the things I have faith in, and it doesn't begin from a logical premise, is that God exists and is benevolent. He wants only the best for us, like any good hearted Father would for his kids. He's not a bully, not hateful. So that's MY starting point. I work back along logic lines from that premise. Let's see if I can bring it around in a logic circle that supports the premise.

We know that anything based on matter has a limited lifetime, right? Birth, growth, maturity, senescence, death. But that doesn't apply to God or to the invisible part of Humanity, the soul. Where's the evidence for the soul, you may ask? It's intuitive...I suppose many don't sense it, having had these arguments over the years. Yet many men have apparently thought so since prehistoric times, given the funerary artifacts archaeologists have found. I sense my own soul; do you? No? Okay, my arguments may not make sense to you then. Let me try anyway.

God has created us as eternal beings, spirit/souls with the potential for an unlimited lifetime. He also placed us in mortal bodies that inevitably must die. Whether in the womb, or childhood or in the prime of life or at the end of a long life, nobody gets outta here alive. From God's perspective it's all the same; a long human lifetime isn't even a blip on the timescale that He created. And the Space/Time Continuum is a construct of His fertile imagination. But the physicality of the universe isn't what most interests Him, in my view. What He has a deep interest in is how his spirit creations (us) respond to the various circumstances we find ourselves in. Pain and misery is actually temporary in the potential eternity ahead of us. And He uses the physical circumstances of our lives to shape our souls, to a purpose of His own. I theorize He has jobs for us in eternity, and this life is sorta like a boot camp. But that is speculation. Who can know?

In the present situation of Katrina and the evacuees, one of the means of soul shaping is whether those who honor God will actually do as He has asked us and share. Will Christians open up their homes and families to wounded refugees? Will they offer jobs and other aid to people who are hurt and fleeing from disaster? If so, they are blessed with growth in their spirits. If not, they will be reminded that something is wrong with their commitment to God. Human nature is to consider ourselves first. What is in it for me when helping someone else I don't know? God's spirit whispers for us to help someone who is wounded. That's why I have hope for the good people I see helping who don't have any faith in God. I think that somehow He has planted a seed in their hearts, and it has begun to sprout, below the surface.

But back to natural phenomena. Earthquakes and windstorms are a balancing act that this earth does to keep itself in equilibrium. They aren't bad in themselves are they? Only what they DO to people when they are around. And only when certain precautions aren't followed. As an example of the simple things we do to care for ourselves, I could cite shelter and clothing. It would be easy to die of exposure without these artifacts, right? The prudent person wears a hat in the burning noonday sun. In the case of disastrous natural phenomena, the extension of this logic is to take account of the earth's forces and build homes appropriately.

How and when we die is not a big issue to God. It WILL happen to all flesh. But He doesn't CREATE the misery we find ourselves enmeshed in. He just created the potential for it. Also the potential for great beauty and joy. Free will allows us to order our lives in such a way as to maximize the joy of the flesh AND the spirit. We can protect ourselves and each other from the harsh conditions of the universe in the pathways of life. Are there decisions that people made that brought disaster? Like building below sea level? Like building out of unreinforced masonry in seismic areas? Should we blame God for the negligence of the builders to understand the natural phenomena that keep the earth in balance?

Well, this post is getting long and I realize I haven't likely addressed all your concerns. There are some items I am unsure about also. For instance the Book of Job, in which it seems that God placed the crosshairs on the faithful man and gave the spiritual enemy a nearly free hand to abuse him. But you must understand my bias is to give God the benefit of the doubt. I feel He has already done so for me...

[Kuldeep]

[quote=LogicaLunatic]

"How can suffering and [your definition of] God co-exist?"
[quote]

Yesterday, on a different thread, I tried to prove mathematically how and why God does not exist as follows:

God does not exist because, Universe is infinitly growing and also reducing as proved scietifically by astromers. Mathematically speaking, it has limits of minus infinity and plus infinity. Therefore, creator of infinity must be also an infinity. Adding of two infinities mean an infinity only. Therefore in the case of infinite universe, no creator is possible. My conclusion is therefore and that too mathematically that there can be no God, but if you want, you may call Universe only as God!!!!!!

Therefore, God loving you, dictating you to do this or that does not exist. As said above what we concieve in the universe and may be even beyond our conception also, is in fact sum total of what we have in hand. We may call it universe, Mr. X or, may be even GOD. Within our intellect, everything around is governed by explanable or not explanable set of laws and reasoning. Take any thing in the universe, may it be planetary motion, life on our planet and its reproduction, our body physiology, social regulations etc. etc. all are run because of some or the other reasoning. It can also be said that everything around us has set of various types of properties and thus events go on and on.

One such property in the living creatures, human in particular is to live, live and live peacefully and be satisfied. Part of this property is due to his mind and this mind is the center of everything good, bad, selfishness, greed, fame, desire, feeling, love, hate and jealousy etc. Every body acts in a way which makes him satisfied and peaceful. All actions good or bad are done to acieve the desirable results. When the desirable results are achieved, the person becomes temporarily peaceful; while unexpected ones make him temporarily sad. Then comes next desire and action & reaction. This way life goes on and on.


Well, coming to free will provided to do good or bad, it must be now clear there is no body in outer space who can dictate you to do evil or not evil. If you are not bounded by religious beliefs, social bindings; you would definitely do anything you want to due to part of your property, which in turn would make you peaceful. If somebody harms you, not fearing getting caught, you would kill him without any problem.

Unfortunately matter is not finished there!!!! For every action, there comes a reaction back in some or the other form. You sow rice, you would get rice and never anythig else. You killed a person, since he troubled you. If this is known by his near one he won't leave you also. Mind is such an instrument having a peculiar property, whether your actions evil or good ones are known or not known to anybody, but these are deep stored in it. You may lie to all, but you can not decieve your own self. All your own actions and their acceptance by you, are bound to have reaction, which you have to bear sooner or later.

Again due to sexual action of parents, child is born. Child grows due to property of system and as per natural law, anything which is born has to die. Obviously child dies after living some years. Before death, logically his many actions have not reacted back. So to bear those balanced reactions, he along with mind's store of balanced actions/reations bound to appear when in some other body frame (Re-incarnation). This is also a natural law. One who is born has to die!!! Similarly who dies has get reborn to share the balance of reactions left unattended due to death in between!!!!

Well to conclude, let me say something about natural disasters. Ecology is well known scientific term, which need not be elaborated. Man through his wisdom has reduced mortality rate alarmingly. Nature has to act to keep over all ecological balance which it efficiently succeeds by intoducing natural calamities, in spite of human intervention. I won't say last to last space mishape was for ecology balance. But yes, whatever good or bad is happening around us to an individual or to masses, is definitely as reactions to actions done in the past. It is pure natural law!!!! Please note, I have confirmed scientifically, there can not be separate God anywhere living in different world. But the property of action and reaction do exist, as it is natural. This way world would go on and on!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[Irene]

I'm an atheist but I would in fact LIKE to believe in god but so far, I haven't heard a single logical reason to.

Maybe that little part of you that would like to believe is God talking to you? Maybe you could ask God to show you a logical reason, I bet he might show you the way or lead you to a place to get some answers.

Kuldeep, that post was just a little out there, not quite sure of the point your trying to get across except that maybe for every action there is a reaction, but how does that prove mathematically that there is no God??

[snotmare]

Greetings all!

Above, logicalunatic brings out some interesting points, one of which I would like to comment on. He was basically saying that if suffering is the cause of evil, how do you explain natural disasters? Is a flood or tornado the result of someone's sin? This is a very valid question and please correct me if I have misunderstood.

Here is my response...
From the beginning, God created all things according to His perfect design. In Genesis 1-3, we see how the world was, how the world was meant to be, and how the world became what it is now. In the garden, all things were perfect. Adam and Eve didn't have to till the ground or work for their food in anyway. There was no pain in child birth, and there were no diseases. As we all know, the world was made imperfect by sin when Adam and Eve ate of the tree. Sin entered the world and cursed God's perfect creation.

In summary, yes, even natural disasters are a result of our sin because our sin made God's perfect world imperfect.

[Kuldeep]

I'm an atheist but I would in fact LIKE to believe in god but so far, I haven't heard a single logical reason to.

Quote by: Irene Maybe that little part of you that would like to believe is God talking to you? Maybe you could ask God to show you a logical reason, I bet he might show you the way or lead you to a place to get some answers.

How can God talk to me, when I say there is no separate God out there? I am not at all eager to get any answer since I do not have any question!!!

But, you want a reason to believe in God!!! I have given a name God to Universe instead and nobody need to give you reason to believe in Universe. It is well before you, why you need a reason believe in it. Anybody can believe in, what is before him!!!

Kuldeep, that post was just a little out there, not quite sure of the point your trying to get across except that maybe for every action there is a reaction, but how does that prove mathematically that there is no God??

You are totally confused, not understanding sizable amount of my post. I am telling the whole concievable Universe and beyond conception if anything lies there, the sum total is scientifically agreed as infinite. The creator of infite identity should also be an infinite. Logically sum of two infinities is also infinity only. I do not see any confusion anywhere!!! The concievable part of Universe itself could easily be termed as GOD for easy grasping by our available senses. Not touching beyond conception portion of Universe as it won't be possible to confirm. Persons like would thrive me out for not providing reasons and proofs.This universe, as we confirmed scientifically, by analysing many many processes, events and happenings etc ( of course negligle as compared to available in the whole of universe) are working on the fundamental property of action and its reaction.

I suggest Irene, you to have second patient & unbiased reading of the post. I have myself re-read it. It sounds very much logical to me.Come out with concrete and logical criticism. I have not included any faith or religious belief in it. It is just a mathematically logical hypothesis Infinity + Infinity = Infinity. Please tell me if my mathematics is wrong then I may be corrected.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: snotmare From the beginning, God created all things according to His perfect design. In Genesis 1-3, we see how the world was, how the world was meant to be, and how the world became what it is now. In the garden, all things were perfect. Adam and Eve didn't have to till the ground or work for their food in anyway. There was no pain in child birth, and there were no diseases. As we all know, the world was made imperfect by sin when Adam and Eve ate of the tree. Sin entered the world and cursed God's perfect creation. In summary, yes, even natural disasters are a result of our sin because our sin made God's perfect world imperfect.

All said above, is pure belief and faith only. Who has incorporated the thought of eating fruit of tree into minds of Adam and Eve. God only, so he should be culprit not the Adam and Eve. Many question are to be answered!!!! How can we prove God is at all there? Then, He is available sitting somewhere, enjoying our misiries for the main sin he himself commited viz entered a thought of eating Apple into the minds of Adam and Eve?

I tried to explain mathematically something based on mathematical infinity which sounds logical. Concrete & logical criticism is welcome according to this forum. According to my previous post, we need not even believe that God exists!! Rather beyond doubt, God can not be a separate identity than our conceivable and beyond universe. Only action and reaction goes on and on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Kuldeep Infinity + Infinity = Infinity. Please tell me if my mathematics is wrong then I may be corrected.

Kuldeep, I am not sure mathematics is applicable on this philosophical enquiry on the nature of reality.

Although it seems maybe English is not your first language, I think you may be proposing that it is no more difficult to grasp an infinite, eternal universe than an infinite, eternal God. Is that a correct assumption?

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: PatrickHenry One of the things I have faith in, and it doesn't begin from a logical premise, is that God exists and is benevolent.

PH,

The assumption that God exists is central to this discussion and is required for it to continue. But whether this god is benevolent or not cannot be assumed since this is the conclusion I'm asking you to come to using logic and reason.

Yes, please start with the premise that, "God Exists," but don't assume the conclusion.

I'll restate the question...

"How can suffering and [your definition of] God co-exist?"

The [your definition of] part includes the idea that God is benevolent, among other things.

Quote by: PatrickHenry What He has a deep interest in is how his spirit creations (us) respond to the various circumstances we find ourselves in. Pain and misery is actually temporary in the potential eternity ahead of us. And He uses the physical circumstances of our lives to shape our souls, to a purpose of His own.

Sounds great if you assume from the get go that god is benevolent. But, without that assumption you haven't logically demonstrated that this "purpose" of his is a benevolent one.

Again, I need to see how [God Exists] + [Everything observable] = [your definition of god]

Quote by: PatrickHenry In the present situation of Katrina and the evacuees, one of the means of soul shaping is whether those who honor God will actually do as He has asked us and share. Will Christians open up their homes and families to wounded refugees? Will they offer jobs and other aid to people who are hurt and fleeing from disaster? If so, they are blessed with growth in their spirits. If not, they will be reminded that something is wrong with their commitment to God.

Again, without the assumption that god is benevolent this doesn't hold water. In fact, it sounds downright mean. Lets take 100 puppies and cut the legs off of 50 of them to see if the other 50 will help them.

Quote by: PatrickHenry Earthquakes and windstorms are a balancing act that this earth does to keep itself in equilibrium.

Right, but why? Is it because that is how God wanted it or is it because God had no control over it? Again if we remove all of the [your definition of] assumptions then this is meaningless.

Quote by: PatrickHenry Should we blame God for the negligence of the builders to understand the natural phenomena that keep the earth in balance?

Can't blame God for the negligence of human builders. That's true. But we can blame him for building a world that requires destructive natural phenomena to keep it in balance. Would you call that negligence on God's part? If not then these phenomena must be here for a reason. Given that, how do these phenomena show that [your definition of] god is correct if you don't assume [your definition of] god from the start?

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: snotmare As we all know, the world was made imperfect by sin when Adam and Eve ate of the tree. Sin entered the world and cursed God's perfect creation. In summary, yes, even natural disasters are a result of our sin because our sin made God's perfect world imperfect.

Actually, we don't all know this. Other than that it's a pretty good explanation. Now please describe the process by which sin causes natural disasters.

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: Irene Maybe that little part of you that would like to believe is God talking to you? Maybe you could ask God to show you a logical reason, I bet he might show you the way or lead you to a place to get some answers.

I've asked and haven't received.

[snotmare]

Actually, we don't all know this. Other than that it's a pretty good explanation. Now please describe the process by which sin causes natural disasters.

Good question.

To understand my point, I think a person needs to have an understanding of the Genesis account of creation. If a person does not know about or does not believe that God created the world, then you are correct. It would not make sense that sin causes natural disasters if we cannot assume the creation story is correct.

Also, let me state that I do not believe that if I go out and lie to someone, that some poor lady in Inda is going to get struck by lightning.

If we can make the above assumptions that the world was created according to the Genesis account, then we can safely say that all pain and suffering in this world are consequences of the sin that exists in this world (including the pain and suffering of natural disasters). As I stated above, God created the world perfect. There was no pain, there was no suffering, there was no sorrow. The term "natural disaster" implies an event that has negative consequences on people or property. Since the world was created without such negativity, we can assume that natural disasters did not occur as we know of them today. Once sin entered the world, pain, suffering, and death spread to all the world because our sin made God's world imperfect (Romans 5:12).

A word picture might be something like this...
If 10 people lived in a sealed clean room where there was no contact to outside germs and they had everything they needed to survive, they could live out their entire lives without getting sick. But, once one person opens a hole to the outside, just one little germ or virus will infect the entire room, bringing pain, suffering, and possibly death.

[bseagle]

I'm not really a religious person, but I do believe in God. His existence isn't something to try to prove or disprove. It's something you believe even though it doesn't make sense. Not everything has to make sense. For all those athiests out there, just as strongly as you believe there is no God, which there is no proof for, Christians and other denominations believe that there is one, just as there is no proof for that. Beliefs aren't about who's right and who's wrong, it's simply a matter of what each individual thinks. Obviously those that believe in God would hope that everyone else would too, but why do athiests care so much about the people that do believe in God? What does it hurt?? That's not a stab at anyone, just a curiosity on my part.

[grandpa]

Quote by: bseagle I'm not really a religious person, but I do believe in God. His existence isn't something to try to prove or disprove. It's something you believe even though it doesn't make sense. Not everything has to make sense. For all those athiests out there, just as strongly as you believe there is no God, which there is no proof for, Christians and other denominations believe that there is one, just as there is no proof for that. Beliefs aren't about who's right and who's wrong, it's simply a matter of what each individual thinks. Obviously those that believe in God would hope that everyone else would too, but why do athiests care so much about the people that do believe in God? What does it hurt?? That's not a stab at anyone, just a curiosity on my part.

I have no huge problem with people believing in God, except when they
A--try to regard religion as scientific
B--think it is okay for the government to represent a religious point of view, thus violating secularism.

Grandpa h.

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: snotmare To understand my point, I think a person needs to have an understanding of the Genesis account of creation. If a person does not know about or does not believe that God created the world, then you are correct. It would not make sense that sin causes natural disasters if we cannot assume the creation story is correct.

You're absolutely correct. But as I stated earlier, the only assumption being made here is that a god exists. Nothing else. Not that this god is benevolent. Not that this god is Omnipotent. Not that this god created everything in 6 days.

For this to be logical everything ELSE about god, other than the assumption that he exists, must follow logically from what is observed.

So, start with 'God Exists' and then go logically from there...

[bseagle]

Quote by: grandpa I have no huge problem with people believing in God, except when they A--try to regard religion as scientific B--think it is okay for the government to represent a religious point of view, thus violating secularism. Grandpa h.

The government has really screwed the pooch on this one. This country was founded upon religious beliefs. Over time, we have allowed many different people with many different beliefs into this country, which is fine. But you can't have it both ways. You can't require citizens to abide by laws that are founded in religion if everyone isn't of the same religion. However, if you want them to be bound by those laws, then you must require them to be a part of the religion on which the laws are based. You can't have it both ways. Secularism is an illusion. Everything the government does in regards to legislation has some background in religion. If that weren't true, homosexuals would be allowed to marry. Homosexuality doesn't ruin the sanctity of marriage, us straight people have done that enough on our own. The decision to refuse marriage and the rights and privileges that go alon with it to members of the same sex is founded in the religious belief that homosexuality is wrong. I suppose that's a whole 'nother topic in itself, but to pretend that the government is secular, though they do try hard, is a mistake. Not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying they push their agenda at any chance they can.

[northtexan]

Quote by: snotmare Greetings all! Above, logicalunatic brings out some interesting points, one of which I would like to comment on. He was basically saying that if suffering is the cause of evil, how do you explain natural disasters? Is a flood or tornado the result of someone's sin? This is a very valid question and please correct me if I have misunderstood. Here is my response... From the beginning, God created all things according to His perfect design. In Genesis 1-3, we see how the world was, how the world was meant to be, and how the world became what it is now. In the garden, all things were perfect. Adam and Eve didn't have to till the ground or work for their food in anyway. There was no pain in child birth, and there were no diseases. As we all know, the world was made imperfect by sin when Adam and Eve ate of the tree. Sin entered the world and cursed God's perfect creation. In summary, yes, even natural disasters are a result of our sin because our sin made God's perfect world imperfect.

Yeah, same old, same old! Because somebody ate some bad fruit, everything went to hell. Because beings given free will actually exercised it, not only did their own choices come back to haunt them, but a childish-bully god smashed the perfect playground equipment. It just doesn't wash. If anything, the Genesis Adam and Eve myth is a coming of age story: the kids grow up, start to make their own decisions, and now its time to leave home and make it on their own. Yeah, there's a mature myth with maturing people in it interacting with a mature god.

Now, why would an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god make a world in which humans must suffer not only the consequences of their own acts and those of their predecessors and colleagues but also from natural evils? I dunno. I don't know that there is a creator god, any more than I know that there isn't. But I certainly don't believe in the mad-child god who stomped around destroying a perfect world because someone made their own decisions. But then, I'm not omniscient and omnipotent, so what do I know?

[snotmare]

So, start with 'God Exists' and then go logically from there...

If I'm understanding you correctly (and please let me know if I'm not), then we both agree that God exists. Based on the agreement that God exists and based on what we can observe in nature, you're wanting to know how sin effects suffering.

Beginning with the assumption that God exists and nothing else is a good place to start from, but it's a long ways from being able to assume that Genesis is accurate. Let me list what I think needs to be understood and agreed on to conclude that Genesis is accurate, and please let me know where you disagree.

1. God created the heavens, the earth, and every living thing.
- If we evolved or God did not create us, then He has no right to judge us.
- I believe that God did create us, therefor He has all rights to His creation.
- If you invent something, you have patent rights to your invention.
- If your invention breaks, you have the right to fix it or distroy it.

2. God is good, just, and without flaw or sin.
- If God is evil, why is He continuing to let us live?
- If God is evil, why is there good in the world?
- If God is without flaw, then His creation is perfect.
- If God is not fair, then His judgement will not be fair.

3. God has the authority to create laws for all things (scientific, moral, etc).
- How can God create something and not define parameters and bounds for His creation?
- If God did not create rules for His creation, then there would be no rules to break!
- Lawlessness = sin
- What good are laws if they are never enforced?

4. God can work through His creation to accomplish anything (that Moses could write the book of Genesis accurately).
- If I invent something, do I not have the ability to use it how I want to?
- Why would God create something and not use His creation for His benefit?
- What's the point of creating something if you're not going to us it?

5. God created us with intellegence and the ability to make our own decisions (both good and bad).
- What's the fun in creating something and having it do exactly and only what you want it to do?
- God created us with the choice to obey Him or not to obey Him.
- Since we didn't obey God, we must suffer the consequences.

6. God cannot sin, nor be in affected by sin.
- Since God is good and cannot be affected by sin, we (the sinners) have separated ourselves from God.
- God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden because they had sinned.

7. God knows all (omnipotent)
- God knows our hearts and knows when we sin.
- God knew that Adam and Eve had sinned, and they could not hide their sin from God.
- Why would God create something and not know His creation thouroughly?
- Can I invent something that I don't have a detailed knowledge of?

As stated above, I think that agreement on these 7 points are neccessary to understand my conclusions stated in my previous posts. Please let me know if we can agree that these 7 points must be agreed on, and what points (if any) you do not agree on.

[bseagle]

Quote by: northtexan Yeah, same old, same old! Because somebody ate some bad fruit, everything went to hell. Because beings given free will actually exercised it, not only did their own choices come back to haunt them, but a childish-bully god smashed the perfect playground equipment. It just doesn't wash. If anything, the Genesis Adam and Eve myth is a coming of age story: the kids grow up, start to make their own decisions, and now its time to leave home and make it on their own. Yeah, there's a mature myth with maturing people in it interacting with a mature god. Now, why would an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god make a world in which humans must suffer not only the consequences of their own acts and those of their predecessors and colleagues but also from natural evils? I dunno. I don't know that there is a creator god, any more than I know that there isn't. But I certainly don't believe in the mad-child god who stomped around destroying a perfect world because someone made their own decisions. But then, I'm not omniscient and omnipotent, so what do I know?

Look at it from a father-child perspective. Your father would do anything he could to protect you from harm, but he can't walk around holding your hand every time you cross the street. That doesn't mean he doesn't love you, it just means he realizes that you're your own person and you'll never learn anything if he's there to protect you every second of every day. Your father would love nothing more than for you to never make a mistake and never have to deal with the consequences of those mistakes, but he understands that's what makes us grow. Learning from our mistakes helps us mature as a person. And when you make mistakes, he doesn't turn his back on you. He helps you understand where you went wrong.

As far as natural disasters go... most of the people I know that believe in God or are religious believe that he won't give you anything you truely can't handle. Natural disasters are bad, yes. But he won't throw anything at you you can't handle. That doesn't mean no one will die. People have to die. There's no way around that. But it's through the trials endured in life that we become stronger people. It builds our character and builds our faith... in God, and each other. God understands that, and he knows that it's necessary for us to sometimes go through those difficult times to realize the good parts of the difficulty. He's not evil because he allows bad things to happen. And it doesn't mean he doesn't care because he stops bad things from happening. On the contrary... he cares enough to let us learn through experience that strengthens the human spirit. Wow... and I'm not even religious!

[Compugasm]

Quote by: LogicaLunatic So, start with 'God Exists' and then go logically from there...

...Then he can die. When he dies (supposing he is not dead), then he should be easy to carry, as he is small, like a child. Remarkable to create all known universe with such small hands.