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Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 12:22 am

There are people in this world who suffer from a group of mental disorders termed Obsessive Compulsive Disorders, or, 'OCD'. The people who suffer from this imbalanced brain chemistry exhibit irrationally obsessive or compuslive behaviour patterns irregardless as to whether they are harmfull to one's self or others.

For example, the person who suffers from an OCD might wash his or her hands repeatedly until the skin is raw with open wounds and prone to infection. One might repeatedly march up and down the stairs or flip a light switch off and on more times than necessary because of a counting obsession.

An OCD, by it's own nature, is a compulsion to do what is not necessary or what is MORE than necessary despite the rational consequence to self or others.

Greed, by it's definition, is the desire to accumulate more than what is necessary or good for oneself. One who is greedy for food, a glutton, desires more food than might be good for his or her self, often to that person's own detriment... Certainly one could suggest that a glutton could be suffering from a mild form of OCD or some cousin thereof.

So what of the greedy hoarder of wealth who seeks to gather more than one could possibly use in several lifetimes? The one who gathers massive wealth often at the cost of others and without regard to the pain and suffering caused in the process, without regard to the cost to oneself and others in the pursuit of greed?

Could it not be said of the greedy that they are so obsessed with wealth that they cannot stop despite the rational consequences? Do they suffer from an illness similar to OCD?

Impenitent · Feb 28, 2004, 12:48 am

no, greed is not an illness...

it is the basis for life, especially human life...

compassion and pity are illnesses...

expecting everyone to act in certain ways after they are given pure unadulterated freedom is not only an illness, it is a stupidity...

Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 01:11 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, greed is not an illness...

it is the basis for life, especially human life...

compassion and pity are illnesses...

expecting everyone to act in certain ways after they are given pure unadulterated freedom is not only an illness, it is a stupidity...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

First line is an assertion of opinion without argument to support.

Second is a fallacy without an argument to support. How is the desire to possess more than one can use (definition of greed) a basis for life?

Yet another one-liner assertion without an argument to support it.

And finally a conclusion that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

Impenitent · Feb 28, 2004, 01:47 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, greed is not an illness...

it is the basis for life, especially human life...

compassion and pity are illnesses...

expecting everyone to act in certain ways after they are given pure unadulterated freedom is not only an illness, it is a stupidity...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

First line is an assertion of opinion without argument to support.

Second is a fallacy without an argument to support. How is the desire to possess more than one can use (definition of greed) a basis for life?

Yet another one-liner assertion without an argument to support it.

And finally a conclusion that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

no, the first line is the fact of the matter... your OCD analogy fails because greed is a basic natural drive in all humans... read some psychology

no, the second line is another fact of the matter not a fallacy (and how could it be a fallacy if as you claim it is not argumentatively supported? by definition, fallacies occur only in arguments)

the pity and compassion line are substitutions for your use of greed... for exactly the same reasons you preach, I can show how pity and compassion are illnesses that need to be eliminated

and my "conclusion" was simply demonstrating how you are doing nothing but preaching how "greedy" people are evil and you wish you could control them by curing their "illness"

and of course, this all assumes that YOU know what is too much and how much is enough for everyone else because they are "greedy"...

in fact the greed is yours because you want to command everyone else to take only what you deem appropriate or "not greedy"

Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 01:52 am

You're still insisting on asserting opinion as fact without offering any actual argument to support your assertions.

Something about doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results comes to mind.

Impenitent · Feb 28, 2004, 01:55 am

and you are insisting on calling the psychological facts nothing but my opinion because they don't fit your view of things...

Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 08:15 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
and you are insisting on calling the psychological facts nothing but my opinion because they don't fit your view of things...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Still yet another lazy one-liner assertion without a shred of argument or proof to back it up.

Show me the psychological text which states that "the insatiable desire for wealth is the basis for human life and the natural condition of sanity." If you cannot, then make an actual argument that demonstrates how this assertion is true.

Either that or you should start trolling elsewhere.

Is still assert that greed, which is the insatiable desire to accumulate wealth without regard to the welfare of others, is simply a different manifestation of an Obssesive Compulsive Disorder, much like the irrational desire to wash one's hands repeatedly or the insatiable compulsion to repeat tasks a specific number of times without any reasonable motivation.

Compassion and empathy are mental states of being and motivators with clear logical and emotional delineations and are not without regard to or a potential threat to the welfare of self and others, thus they do not reside within the realm of psychological disorders. Show me the psychological text where it states pity and compassion are listed as psychological disorders.

Feb 28, 2004, 09:25 am

It would be useful to recall that what you are dubbing "greed" is naught but the desire for security: enough food, enough shelter, enough pleasure, etc. This necessarily means stockpiling to some extent, as we know that even these things are fleeting at best.

Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 09:32 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)
It would be useful to recall that what you are dubbing "greed" is naught but the desire for security: enough food, enough shelter, enough pleasure, etc. This necessarily means stockpiling to some extent, as we know that even these things are fleeting at best.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

At what point does stockpiling become obsession?

How is the accumulation of millions or even billions of dollars, more than any person could reasonably spend for a lifetime of comfortable living, considered to be anything other than the consolidation of wealth simply for greed's sake?

There is a threshold that one crosses, going from being cautious to being obsessed. The compulsive hand washer who wants to protect himself from germs, at what point is his washing obsession more harmfull than helpfull.

As you see, the similarities are quite striking.

Impenitent · Feb 28, 2004, 09:35 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
and you are insisting on calling the psychological facts nothing but my opinion because they don't fit your view of things...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Still yet another lazy one-liner assertion without a shred of argument or proof to back it up.

Show me the psychological text which states that "the insatiable desire for wealth is the basis for human life and the natural condition of sanity." If you cannot, then make an actual argument that demonstrates how this assertion is true.

:rolleyes: have you ever heard of Buddhism? what is the second noble truth?

Either that or you should start trolling elsewhere.

:rolleyes: ad hominems again?

Is still assert that greed, which is the insatiable desire to accumulate wealth without regard to the welfare of others, is simply a different manifestation of an Obssesive Compulsive Disorder, much like the irrational desire to wash one's hands repeatedly or the insatiable compulsion to repeat tasks a specific number of times without any reasonable motivation.

:rolleyes: irrational desire? are all irrational desires manifestations of OCD? ... be very careful how you answer that one

Compassion and empathy are mental states of being and motivators with clear logical and emotional delineations and are not without regard to or a potential threat to the welfare of self and others, thus they do not reside within the realm of psychological disorders. Show me the psychological text where it states pity and compassion are listed as psychological disorders.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

:rolleyes: "Compassion and empathy are mental states of being and motivators with clear logical and emotional delineations and are not without regard to or a potential threat to the welfare of self and others" really? are you serious? what was the name of the disorder which afflicted the family who hid Anne Frank called? pity and compassion...

Feb 28, 2004, 09:48 am

Pack, are you forgetting that people go from having millions to being broke every single day?

I will grant that there may be some who are wealthy and who HAPPEN to have OCD as well, but the causal relation, or the necessary identity which you are trying to draw is impossible to make employing reason.

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 28, 2004, 12:16 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
There are people in this world who suffer from a group of mental disorders termed Obsessive Compulsive Disorders, or, 'OCD'. The people who suffer from this imbalanced brain chemistry exhibit irrationally obsessive or compuslive behaviour patterns irregardless as to whether they are harmfull to one's self or others.

For example, the person who suffers from an OCD might wash his or her hands repeatedly until the skin is raw with open wounds and prone to infection. One might repeatedly march up and down the stairs or flip a light switch off and on more times than necessary because of a counting obsession.

An OCD, by it's own nature, is a compulsion to do what is not necessary or what is MORE than necessary despite the rational consequence to self or others.

Greed, by it's definition, is the desire to accumulate more than what is necessary or good for oneself. One who is greedy for food, a glutton, desires more food than might be good for his or her self, often to that person's own detriment... Certainly one could suggest that a glutton could be suffering from a mild form of OCD or some cousin thereof.

So what of the greedy hoarder of wealth who seeks to gather more than one could possibly use in several lifetimes? The one who gathers massive wealth often at the cost of others and without regard to the pain and suffering caused in the process, without regard to the cost to oneself and others in the pursuit of greed?

Could it not be said of the greedy that they are so obsessed with wealth that they cannot stop despite the rational consequences? Do they suffer from an illness similar to OCD?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Why do you call OCD an illness?

Some people simply ARE ocd...so what? Are they sick? I guess you think so...

RebelWithanAK · Feb 28, 2004, 03:25 pm

It's a disorder. What else would it be, but a mental illness?

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 28, 2004, 04:54 pm

Ok...good to know that.

So we can definately see that greed is simply a personality trait...it's neither a disorder or a mental illness.

kcfive · Feb 28, 2004, 07:39 pm

"...still assert that greed, which is the insatiable desire to accumulate wealth without regard to the welfare of others, is simply a different manifestation of an Obssesive Compulsive Disorder..."

OCD is considered an illness by the medical community. This statement is supported by the doctors I've talked to in regards to my friend who has been diagnosed with OCD as well all that I've read on the subject.

If I understand correctly, your asserting that greed is nothing more than an Illness alike unto OCD, depending on your definition of Illness I might be inclined to agree with you. According to Dictionary.com, the word Illness, besides meaning "disease" also means; "Bad, Evil, Immoral, Wicked," If we are to take the Dictionary at face value, than all mankind is ill since there are none of us who are not "bad" at sometime in our life, (or sometime during each day for that matter)

I have a four year old and a two year old. I do not have to teach them how to be bad. Without me ever instructing them they naturally know how to be greedy, selfish, etc. I do have to teach them how to be good, and even more importantly I have to teach them how to obey even when they don't want to.

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to observe that we are all born with selfish bents. I'll be the first person to acknowledge that society plays a part in who we become. That our surrounding (parents, relatives, friends) play a part in whom we are. Yet ultimately I'm convinced that we are born with a "sick" heart. We are born with an illness, an illness to be bad.

One of the descriptions of greed in the dictionary is; "covetousness". No matter what one thinks of the Ten Commandments there are a couple observations I think we can all see. Nearly all of the Ten commandments deal with externals, i.e. Don't worship other Gods, Don't break the Sabbath, etc. Yet the last command, "Do not covet" is completely internal. Infact, the historical apostle Paul writes that it was that very commandment, "do not covet" that turned his
thinking around; once a Christian killer, to becoming a xian.

Within Evangelical Christian circles, when a person "becomes" a xian they are nearly always given a set of rules, i.e. don't drink, don't chew, don't run with those who do. American Xianity is more a set of rules than a relationship with a personal God as they boast it is. Infact, most every outsider of Evangelical Xianity associates the religion more with a set of rules than anything else. This is the same with Catholicism as well.

I personally think that the tenth commandment, if applied will help to solve
much of societies "Ills" such as greed which this thread is about.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 28, 2004, 07:39 pm

No, I have to agree with Packratt - personal greed at the cost of society's welfare is not only mental illness, it's the recipe for the destruction of the species.

castille · Feb 29, 2004, 07:00 am

Greed isn't about obssessively hoarding money without spending it. Thats just the liberals talking. Greed is survival.

For example, if you eat meat, you are greedy. Why? You have essentially killed somebody in order to get that meat. Every day you kill 2 animals. Isn't that also greed?

Ironically the wine-sipping liberal academics/students whinging about greed are extremely greedy themselves. Firstly, why do the anti-greed people have computers? If they sold their computers, they could feed 1000 starving African children. But no. They prefer to let the black kids starve while they feed their faces and drink wine and debate on greed.

Greed is survival. Everyone is greedy. EVEN those who argue against greed are greedy themselves.

Packratt · Feb 29, 2004, 08:46 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
No, I have to agree with Packratt - personal greed at the cost of society's welfare is not only mental illness, it's the recipe for the destruction of the species.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, of course, the problem is that saying this in front of a bunch of amoral people who embrace greed and believe antisocial behavior should be the norm is like telling a junkie he has a problem while that addict is stoned, it's like trying to reason with an alchoholic after he downed a fifth. They will rationalize their problem out the wang and spew forth angry hate filled invectives.

Of course they don't have a problem, of course they aren't hurting anyone, of course they don't realize it until they are dying face down in a toilet bowl from an OD, or their liver turns into a rock, or their greed creates such an inbalance that the poor have no other choice but to turn violent and revolt or starve on the streets, thus swinging the pendulum to the opposite extreme.

People need to ask themselves, why did all these social programs form around the great depression? It was because the US was threatened with a revolt of sorts, the people who were starving were starting to turn towards the communist solution out of desperation and anger, they saw the effects of wealth consolidation and were ready to destroy capitalism as it existed at the time. The only choice the government had to protect itself was to enact solutions that would feed and protect the lower class millions, or else those millions would have overthrown the system. It wasn't an act of humanitarianism, it was an act of self preservation.

But the addict never learns... Keeps repeating the same mistakes because he is obsessed with MORE for purely for MORE'S sake.

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 29, 2004, 12:26 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
No, I have to agree with Packratt - personal greed at the cost of society's welfare is not only mental illness, it's the recipe for the destruction of the species.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

OK...you had better have exactly $0 in your savings account. Since saving up money is greedy and will result in destruction.....

RebelWithanAK · Feb 29, 2004, 09:16 pm

Actually, I have exactly -$248 in my bank account, Mr Red Herring. I'm essentially jobless, in that my work is extremely temporary or mere contract work. My bank charges me fees for having less than $500 in my account, and further fees for having less than $0 in my account thanks to the first fees.

Besides, that's a non-sequitor: I need money to buy necessities. The system just works that way. If there ever was any money in my bank, it'd be out just as quickly, going to rent, electricity, ISP charges, food, transit, and the occasional music CD or cultural event. Besides, if I did find some way to save, it'd then just go to college.

Furthermore, it's a fallacious argument because we're talking about greed as a mental illness. Having a nest egg so I don't get kicked out in the street thanks to a doctor bill or, *gasp* being laid off, isn't the same as what we're trying to typify here. Or don't you get that?

Feb 28, 2004, 12:22 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	There are people in this world who suffer from a group of mental disorders termed Obsessive Compulsive Disorders, or, 'OCD'. The people who suffer from this imbalanced brain chemistry exhibit irrationally obsessive or compuslive behaviour patterns irregardless as to whether they are harmfull to one's self or others. For example, the person who suffers from an OCD might wash his or her hands repeatedly until the skin is raw with open wounds and prone to infection. One might repeatedly march up and down the stairs or flip a light switch off and on more times than necessary because of a counting obsession. An OCD, by it's own nature, is a compulsion to do what is not necessary or what is MORE than necessary despite the rational consequence to self or others. Greed, by it's definition, is the desire to accumulate more than what is necessary or good for oneself. One who is greedy for food, a glutton, desires more food than might be good for his or her self, often to that person's own detriment... Certainly one could suggest that a glutton could be suffering from a mild form of OCD or some cousin thereof. So what of the greedy hoarder of wealth who seeks to gather more than one could possibly use in several lifetimes? The one who gathers massive wealth often at the cost of others and without regard to the pain and suffering caused in the process, without regard to the cost to oneself and others in the pursuit of greed? Could it not be said of the greedy that they are so obsessed with wealth that they cannot stop despite the rational consequences? Do they suffer from an illness similar to OCD? "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 12:48 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	no, greed is not an illness... it is the basis for life, especially human life... compassion and pity are illnesses... expecting everyone to act in certain ways after they are given pure unadulterated freedom is not only an illness, it is a stupidity... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 28, 2004, 01:11 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, greed is not an illness... it is the basis for life, especially human life... compassion and pity are illnesses... expecting everyone to act in certain ways after they are given pure unadulterated freedom is not only an illness, it is a stupidity...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> First line is an assertion of opinion without argument to support. Second is a fallacy without an argument to support. How is the desire to possess more than one can use (definition of greed) a basis for life? Yet another one-liner assertion without an argument to support it. And finally a conclusion that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 01:47 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, greed is not an illness... it is the basis for life, especially human life... compassion and pity are illnesses... expecting everyone to act in certain ways after they are given pure unadulterated freedom is not only an illness, it is a stupidity...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> First line is an assertion of opinion without argument to support. Second is a fallacy without an argument to support. How is the desire to possess more than one can use (definition of greed) a basis for life? Yet another one-liner assertion without an argument to support it. And finally a conclusion that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> no, the first line is the fact of the matter... your OCD analogy fails because greed is a basic natural drive in all humans... read some psychology no, the second line is another fact of the matter not a fallacy (and how could it be a fallacy if as you claim it is not argumentatively supported? by definition, fallacies occur only in arguments) the pity and compassion line are substitutions for your use of greed... for exactly the same reasons you preach, I can show how pity and compassion are illnesses that need to be eliminated and my "conclusion" was simply demonstrating how you are doing nothing but preaching how "greedy" people are evil and you wish you could control them by curing their "illness" and of course, this all assumes that YOU know what is too much and how much is enough for everyone else because they are "greedy"... in fact the greed is yours because you want to command everyone else to take only what you deem appropriate or "not greedy" "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 28, 2004, 01:52 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	You're still insisting on asserting opinion as fact without offering any actual argument to support your assertions. Something about doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results comes to mind. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 01:55 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	and you are insisting on calling the psychological facts nothing but my opinion because they don't fit your view of things... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 28, 2004, 08:15 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) and you are insisting on calling the psychological facts nothing but my opinion because they don't fit your view of things...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Still yet another lazy one-liner assertion without a shred of argument or proof to back it up. Show me the psychological text which states that "the insatiable desire for wealth is the basis for human life and the natural condition of sanity." If you cannot, then make an actual argument that demonstrates how this assertion is true. Either that or you should start trolling elsewhere. Is still assert that greed, which is the insatiable desire to accumulate wealth without regard to the welfare of others, is simply a different manifestation of an Obssesive Compulsive Disorder, much like the irrational desire to wash one's hands repeatedly or the insatiable compulsion to repeat tasks a specific number of times without any reasonable motivation. Compassion and empathy are mental states of being and motivators with clear logical and emotional delineations and are not without regard to or a potential threat to the welfare of self and others, thus they do not reside within the realm of psychological disorders. Show me the psychological text where it states pity and compassion are listed as psychological disorders. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 09:25 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	It would be useful to recall that what you are dubbing "greed" is naught but the desire for security: enough food, enough shelter, enough pleasure, etc. This necessarily means stockpiling to some extent, as we know that even these things are fleeting at best.

Feb 28, 2004, 09:32 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,) It would be useful to recall that what you are dubbing "greed" is naught but the desire for security: enough food, enough shelter, enough pleasure, etc. This necessarily means stockpiling to some extent, as we know that even these things are fleeting at best.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> At what point does stockpiling become obsession? How is the accumulation of millions or even billions of dollars, more than any person could reasonably spend for a lifetime of comfortable living, considered to be anything other than the consolidation of wealth simply for greed's sake? There is a threshold that one crosses, going from being cautious to being obsessed. The compulsive hand washer who wants to protect himself from germs, at what point is his washing obsession more harmfull than helpfull. As you see, the similarities are quite striking. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 09:35 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) and you are insisting on calling the psychological facts nothing but my opinion because they don't fit your view of things...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Still yet another lazy one-liner assertion without a shred of argument or proof to back it up. Show me the psychological text which states that "the insatiable desire for wealth is the basis for human life and the natural condition of sanity." If you cannot, then make an actual argument that demonstrates how this assertion is true. :rolleyes: have you ever heard of Buddhism? what is the second noble truth? Either that or you should start trolling elsewhere. :rolleyes: ad hominems again? Is still assert that greed, which is the insatiable desire to accumulate wealth without regard to the welfare of others, is simply a different manifestation of an Obssesive Compulsive Disorder, much like the irrational desire to wash one's hands repeatedly or the insatiable compulsion to repeat tasks a specific number of times without any reasonable motivation. :rolleyes: irrational desire? are all irrational desires manifestations of OCD? ... be very careful how you answer that one Compassion and empathy are mental states of being and motivators with clear logical and emotional delineations and are not without regard to or a potential threat to the welfare of self and others, thus they do not reside within the realm of psychological disorders. Show me the psychological text where it states pity and compassion are listed as psychological disorders.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> :rolleyes: "Compassion and empathy are mental states of being and motivators with clear logical and emotional delineations and are not without regard to or a potential threat to the welfare of self and others" really? are you serious? what was the name of the disorder which afflicted the family who hid Anne Frank called? pity and compassion... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 28, 2004, 09:48 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Pack, are you forgetting that people go from having millions to being broke every single day? I will grant that there may be some who are wealthy and who HAPPEN to have OCD as well, but the causal relation, or the necessary identity which you are trying to draw is impossible to make employing reason.

Feb 28, 2004, 12:16 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,) There are people in this world who suffer from a group of mental disorders termed Obsessive Compulsive Disorders, or, 'OCD'. The people who suffer from this imbalanced brain chemistry exhibit irrationally obsessive or compuslive behaviour patterns irregardless as to whether they are harmfull to one's self or others. For example, the person who suffers from an OCD might wash his or her hands repeatedly until the skin is raw with open wounds and prone to infection. One might repeatedly march up and down the stairs or flip a light switch off and on more times than necessary because of a counting obsession. An OCD, by it's own nature, is a compulsion to do what is not necessary or what is MORE than necessary despite the rational consequence to self or others. Greed, by it's definition, is the desire to accumulate more than what is necessary or good for oneself. One who is greedy for food, a glutton, desires more food than might be good for his or her self, often to that person's own detriment... Certainly one could suggest that a glutton could be suffering from a mild form of OCD or some cousin thereof. So what of the greedy hoarder of wealth who seeks to gather more than one could possibly use in several lifetimes? The one who gathers massive wealth often at the cost of others and without regard to the pain and suffering caused in the process, without regard to the cost to oneself and others in the pursuit of greed? Could it not be said of the greedy that they are so obsessed with wealth that they cannot stop despite the rational consequences? Do they suffer from an illness similar to OCD?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Why do you call OCD an illness? Some people simply ARE ocd...so what? Are they sick? I guess you think so...

Feb 28, 2004, 03:25 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	It's a disorder. What else would it be, but a mental illness? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 28, 2004, 04:54 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Ok...good to know that. So we can definately see that greed is simply a personality trait...it's neither a disorder or a mental illness.

Feb 28, 2004, 07:39 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
kcfive Sedimentary Rock Posts: 5	"...still assert that greed, which is the insatiable desire to accumulate wealth without regard to the welfare of others, is simply a different manifestation of an Obssesive Compulsive Disorder..." OCD is considered an illness by the medical community. This statement is supported by the doctors I've talked to in regards to my friend who has been diagnosed with OCD as well all that I've read on the subject. If I understand correctly, your asserting that greed is nothing more than an Illness alike unto OCD, depending on your definition of Illness I might be inclined to agree with you. According to Dictionary.com, the word Illness, besides meaning "disease" also means; "Bad, Evil, Immoral, Wicked," If we are to take the Dictionary at face value, than all mankind is ill since there are none of us who are not "bad" at sometime in our life, (or sometime during each day for that matter) I have a four year old and a two year old. I do not have to teach them how to be bad. Without me ever instructing them they naturally know how to be greedy, selfish, etc. I do have to teach them how to be good, and even more importantly I have to teach them how to obey even when they don't want to. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to observe that we are all born with selfish bents. I'll be the first person to acknowledge that society plays a part in who we become. That our surrounding (parents, relatives, friends) play a part in whom we are. Yet ultimately I'm convinced that we are born with a "sick" heart. We are born with an illness, an illness to be bad. One of the descriptions of greed in the dictionary is; "covetousness". No matter what one thinks of the Ten Commandments there are a couple observations I think we can all see. Nearly all of the Ten commandments deal with externals, i.e. Don't worship other Gods, Don't break the Sabbath, etc. Yet the last command, "Do not covet" is completely internal. Infact, the historical apostle Paul writes that it was that very commandment, "do not covet" that turned his thinking around; once a Christian killer, to becoming a xian. Within Evangelical Christian circles, when a person "becomes" a xian they are nearly always given a set of rules, i.e. don't drink, don't chew, don't run with those who do. American Xianity is more a set of rules than a relationship with a personal God as they boast it is. Infact, most every outsider of Evangelical Xianity associates the religion more with a set of rules than anything else. This is the same with Catholicism as well. I personally think that the tenth commandment, if applied will help to solve much of societies "Ills" such as greed which this thread is about. Christian Hedonist

Feb 28, 2004, 07:39 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	No, I have to agree with Packratt - personal greed at the cost of society's welfare is not only mental illness, it's the recipe for the destruction of the species. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 29, 2004, 07:00 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Greed isn't about obssessively hoarding money without spending it. Thats just the liberals talking. Greed is survival. For example, if you eat meat, you are greedy. Why? You have essentially killed somebody in order to get that meat. Every day you kill 2 animals. Isn't that also greed? Ironically the wine-sipping liberal academics/students whinging about greed are extremely greedy themselves. Firstly, why do the anti-greed people have computers? If they sold their computers, they could feed 1000 starving African children. But no. They prefer to let the black kids starve while they feed their faces and drink wine and debate on greed. Greed is survival. Everyone is greedy. EVEN those who argue against greed are greedy themselves. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 29, 2004, 08:46 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) No, I have to agree with Packratt - personal greed at the cost of society's welfare is not only mental illness, it's the recipe for the destruction of the species.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, of course, the problem is that saying this in front of a bunch of amoral people who embrace greed and believe antisocial behavior should be the norm is like telling a junkie he has a problem while that addict is stoned, it's like trying to reason with an alchoholic after he downed a fifth. They will rationalize their problem out the wang and spew forth angry hate filled invectives. Of course they don't have a problem, of course they aren't hurting anyone, of course they don't realize it until they are dying face down in a toilet bowl from an OD, or their liver turns into a rock, or their greed creates such an inbalance that the poor have no other choice but to turn violent and revolt or starve on the streets, thus swinging the pendulum to the opposite extreme. People need to ask themselves, why did all these social programs form around the great depression? It was because the US was threatened with a revolt of sorts, the people who were starving were starting to turn towards the communist solution out of desperation and anger, they saw the effects of wealth consolidation and were ready to destroy capitalism as it existed at the time. The only choice the government had to protect itself was to enact solutions that would feed and protect the lower class millions, or else those millions would have overthrown the system. It wasn't an act of humanitarianism, it was an act of self preservation. But the addict never learns... Keeps repeating the same mistakes because he is obsessed with MORE for purely for MORE'S sake. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 29, 2004, 12:26 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) No, I have to agree with Packratt - personal greed at the cost of society's welfare is not only mental illness, it's the recipe for the destruction of the species.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> OK...you had better have exactly $0 in your savings account. Since saving up money is greedy and will result in destruction.....

Feb 29, 2004, 09:16 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Actually, I have exactly -$248 in my bank account, Mr Red Herring. I'm essentially jobless, in that my work is extremely temporary or mere contract work. My bank charges me fees for having less than $500 in my account, and further fees for having less than $0 in my account thanks to the first fees. Besides, that's a non-sequitor: I need money to buy necessities. The system just works that way. If there ever was any money in my bank, it'd be out just as quickly, going to rent, electricity, ISP charges, food, transit, and the occasional music CD or cultural event. Besides, if I did find some way to save, it'd then just go to college. Furthermore, it's a fallacious argument because we're talking about greed as a mental illness. Having a nest egg so I don't get kicked out in the street thanks to a doctor bill or, gasp being laid off, isn't the same as what we're trying to typify here. Or don't you get that? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.