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Athena · Sep 13, 2005, 02:14 pm

Prehaps we should not consider if and how a God controls us, without also considering if and how Satan controls us. Pat Robertson is really into the teaching the power of Saint.
Christianity is just as much about the power of God and it is about the power of Satan. Should we be beating the devil out of children? What steps should we take to protect ourselves from Satan and his demons? Should we be carrying silver crosses and do rituals to protect ourselves and families from Satan and his demons?

Satan has power on earth these days. What should we do about it? How do we rescue souls? Should we be focused on rescuing souls? Should we fill our hospitals and prisons to pray for those tormented by Satan and his demons? Like what will Satan do our country if we don't over come him?

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 02:24 pm

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Quote by: Athena

Should we be carrying silver crosses and do rituals to protect ourselves and families from Satan and his demons?

Heh. That doesn't work. We overcome evil with good.

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Quote by: Athena

Like what will Satan do our country if we don't over come him?

What WILL he do? Or what HAS he done?

Ever read anything by Scott Peck, Athena? You would like him. He is so popular for years that I am sure you can find his books at the library.Try People of the Lie
Or you can buy it for a penny (plus shipping $3.50) here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/off...?condition=all
Well, maybe you should read The Road Less Traveled first. But understanding evil is an important issue. We are surrounded by it. Yet we overcome it by love.

Logjam · Sep 13, 2005, 02:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Heh. That doesn't work. We overcome evil with good.
What WILL he do? Or what HAS he done?

Ever read anything by Scott Peck, Athena? You would like him. He is so popular for years that I am sure you can find his books at the library.Try People of the Lie
Or you can buy it for a penny (plus shipping $3.50) here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/off...?condition=all
Well, maybe you should read The Road Less Traveled first. But understanding evil is an important issue. We are surrounded by it. Yet we overcome it by love.

I doubt that Satan exists. If he did he'd have to be a construct of God's, and God wouldn't do that. PH is right. We overcome evil by doing good.

Satan be damned.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Sep 13, 2005, 03:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Athena

Prehaps we should not consider if and how a God controls us, without also considering if and how Satan controls us. Pat Robertson is really into the teaching the power of Saint.
Christianity is just as much about the power of God and it is about the power of Satan. Should we be beating the devil out of children? What steps should we take to protect ourselves from Satan and his demons? Should we be carrying silver crosses and do rituals to protect ourselves and families from Satan and his demons?

Satan has power on earth these days. What should we do about it? How do we rescue souls? Should we be focused on rescuing souls? Should we fill our hospitals and prisons to pray for those tormented by Satan and his demons? Like what will Satan do our country if we don't over come him?

In order to respect the beliefs of Satanists, we shouldn't do anything.

Disinterested · Sep 13, 2005, 03:49 pm

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Quote by: Logjam

I doubt that Satan exists. If he did he'd have to be a construct of God's, and God wouldn't do that. PH is right. We overcome evil by doing good.

Satan be damned.

If Satan didn't exist, would God have to invent him? How else would Judeo-Christians be able to explain suffering and misery?

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 03:58 pm

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Quote by: Disinterested

If Satan didn't exist, would God have to invent him? How else would Judeo-Christians be able to explain suffering and misery?

Good thing we don't have to! There is no doubt in my mind that Satan is real. He is the source of all pain and evil. His greatest victories are in convincing the "wise" that he is a figment.

But his kingdom is being overcome by the Kingdom of Light.

Quote:

on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Rock of Faith.

Disinterested · Sep 13, 2005, 04:01 pm

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Quote by: PatrickHenry

Good thing we don't have to! There is no doubt in my mind that Satan is real. He is the source of all pain and evil. His greatest victories are in convincing the "wise" that he is a figment.

But his kingdom is being overcome by the Kingdom of Light.
The Rock of Faith.

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, why would He want his creation to suffer?

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 04:04 pm

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Quote by: Disinterested

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, why would He want his creation to suffer?

Why do you think?

SoccerfreakAB2 · Sep 13, 2005, 04:08 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Good thing we don't have to! There is no doubt in my mind that Satan is real. He is the source of all pain and evil. His greatest victories are in convincing the "wise" that he is a figment.

But his kingdom is being overcome by the Kingdom of Light.

What makes you think the "good side" is winning?

So your saying then that God and Satan both reigned eternally until God created the Earth? Or did he create Satan himself?

grandpa · Sep 13, 2005, 04:15 pm

Satan and God seem to be societal constructs. If anyone can prove otherwise, I'd be quite surprised. Evil things happen because people and yes, even the earth, are flawed.

Some others brought up a good point--If Satan does exist it's because God created him.

Other than that, does anyone deserve to suffer in hell forever? Forever is a long, long
time -- even for the worst of the worst.

Grandpa h.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Sep 13, 2005, 04:18 pm

Quote:

Quote by: grandpa

Satan and God seem to be societal constructs. If anyone can prove otherwise, I'd be quite surprised. Evil things happen because people and yes, even the earth, are flawed.

Some others brought up a good point--If Satan does exist it's because God created him.

Other than that, does anyone deserve to suffer in hell forever? Forever is a long, long
time -- even for the worst of the worst.

Grandpa h.

'

I agree. However, it's more useful to prove someone else wrong than it is to prove yourself right.

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 04:35 pm

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Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2

What makes you think the "good side" is winning?

So your saying then that God and Satan both reigned eternally until God created the Earth? Or did he create Satan himself?

I see God's victories every day. Satan has some too, but prophecy indicates he's lost already and doesn't acknowledge it.

Satan was created by God. Or rather the precursor being, Lucifer, was the mightiest angel. Angels are created beings. God is the Uncreated. Lucifer's pride brought rebellion against the Most High. He was ejected from his position of greatness in the kingdom of eternal Holiness. Now he seeks the destruction of all the beauty and goodness that God has created. He has some limited success, true.

The Eternal Torment is designated for Satan and his servants, the demonic powers. It was never meant for humanity. But some choose it in their rejection of the mercy of the Most High. This is not God's plan. But His allowance for free will is the only thing that prevents us from being automatons. We can choose God or choose to bypass His offer of Eternity with Him. The Soul is a construct of God. Once made, it cannot be unmade. The generous offer God has made is Eternity with Him in the Kingdom of Light.

Eternal Torment is the agony of the soul is its self-imposed separation from Him...If you exalt yourself against God, you are the loser.

Disinterested · Sep 13, 2005, 05:18 pm

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Quote by: PatrickHenry

Why do you think?

I'm asking you. You may choose to avoid the question.

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 05:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Disinterested

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, why would He want his creation to suffer?

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Quote by: Disinterested

I'm asking you. You may choose to avoid the question.

You're the one making the allegation about suffering and God. I didn't say what you are asking about, and I don't think He wants suffering.

Disinterested · Sep 13, 2005, 05:33 pm

Then how can suffering and God co-exist? If God doesn't "want" suffering, and suffering exists, then God by definition is not omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent. If God is not omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent then God is not God.

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 05:48 pm

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Quote by: Disinterested

how can suffering and God co-exist?

God allows some things He doesn't like to exist. That's the only way He can allow free will. Is this too big a concept to wrap your finite mind around, Disinterested? Not for me...

It all redounds to His Power and Glory.

Ken Carman · Sep 13, 2005, 06:39 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Athena

Prehaps we should not consider if and how a God controls us, without also considering if and how Satan controls us. Pat Robertson is really into the teaching the power of Saint.
Christianity is just as much about the power of God and it is about the power of Satan. Should we be beating the devil out of children? What steps should we take to protect ourselves from Satan and his demons? Should we be carrying silver crosses and do rituals to protect ourselves and families from Satan and his demons?

Satan has power on earth these days. What should we do about it? How do we rescue souls? Should we be focused on rescuing souls? Should we fill our hospitals and prisons to pray for those tormented by Satan and his demons? Like what will Satan do our country if we don't over come him?

Interesting counter post. I must admit while I'm a theist with agnostic tendencies, I'm not much of a believer in Satan. I know the automatic response from some is you can't believe in one without believing in the other. Why? Says who? If you've read past posts you know I don't believe in pure evil or good. From our perspectives some things, beings, or people may seem pure one or the other, but that's more a vehicle of convenience than reality. Our brains are kind of wired to work with absolutes in a universe that may not be so.

Could God have an evil side? Perhaps this duality we're are faced with is Sybil in nature? If we are to accept biblical Christianity as many more literal faiths do then it's obvious that God can either change his/her/its mind, considering the Old Testament vs the New, or suffers from a personality disorder. See, there I go, using absolutes! Our brains are wired to think that way. The truth is probably, like it often is, somewhere in between.

I do think that sometimes Satan is a construct built to explain just how screwed up our wiring may be: the Stalins, the Jeff Dahmers... It's a way to keep from looking at the "evil" within. Something good happens? Claim we are blessed/saved by God, while our neighbor who is as faithful as we are drowned in fece drenched waters of NO. (I know, then that was God's plan... otherwise known as circular reasoning.) Claim it's the doing of Satan and thus minimize the fact that we can be a violent, nasty. vile species on both an individual basis and as a group. That last sentence should work for the atheist, agnostic and theist. Some blame the evil within as what we sometimes we do because of faith, some say because of lack of faith, and some might say that evolution and random combining of DNA pretty much dictates, even to the best parents, "evil" may be born. While all sides busily point fingers that easily slip into their own viewpoint we spend too little time trying to identify and limit the deeds done by such people and groups. We spend too little time attempting to either rehabilitate such people, if possible, or take them out of the equation one way or another so no one has to suffer at their hands again.

I find that "Satan" is a concept that almost automatically takes God down many, many notches. Any all powerful being would not be loving or benevolent if he or she allowed such a miserable creature to have any power or continue their miserable existence. Any God who is so powerless against his own creation has some pretty serious issues. If you believe in Satan then an all powerful, all knowing and compassionate God is pretty much a contradiction in terms. Sounds like we're little more than puzzle pieces or chess pieces in such a case.

PatrickHenry · Sep 13, 2005, 06:59 pm

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Quote by: Ken Carman

If you believe in Satan then an all powerful, all knowing and compassionate God is pretty much a contradiction in terms.

Not at all! What most folks can't get a grip on is that we humans are a little like God, but He is not at all like us.

He is a sentient being, true. He has a personality, true. Otherwise, He is utterly different. He is unlimited by time and space for example. On the contrary, THEY are limited by Him. They are His constructs. So when we try to generalize our finite limited reason and wisdom to extend over God, we are engaged in futility. He is sovereign over all Creation, we have a limited creative ability.

Satan will be taken care of in the final windup of this universe. Who knows how many universes preceded this one? Or how many will be created and destroyed after? The unlimited Creator can do as He wishes. And although He has revealed a bit of Himself to us, most of His being remains obscure.

Do you deny the existence of evil? If not, what is its source?

Ken Carman · Sep 13, 2005, 07:08 pm

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Eternal Torment is the agony of the soul is its self-imposed separation from Him...If you exalt yourself against God, you are the loser.

If you tell me you are the best bowler in the universe and I disagree or question the statement is that exalting myself against you? No. If I were we say, "You suck, I'm better than you, worship me the best bowler in the universe," that's exalting myself.

If I question the existence of God, am I exalting myself against God? No, I am in doubt. If I claim I am a God, that's a different story.

To claim your creations have "free will" and then snatch it away when they dare to disagree with you is not only the act of a nasty, petulant child. Who would tolerate a friend or lover who constantly treats us that way? Why do some tolerate it in their God?

I believe God is more mature than I, or especially that petulant child I mentioned. If there is a heaven then it will be a great awakening where, without animosity or sadistic torment, I realize where I have strayed and where I have chosen the right path. And yes, perhaps my creator and I will share more than a few laughs about it all.

CJFreeman · Sep 13, 2005, 07:14 pm

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Quote by: grandpa

Satan and God seem to be societal constructs. If anyone can prove otherwise, I'd be quite surprised. Evil things happen because people and yes, even the earth, are flawed.

Meh. This thought is a societal construct. The perception of flaws is a societal concept. Now what?

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Other than that, does anyone deserve to suffer in hell forever? Forever is a long, long time -- even for the worst of the worst.

Grandpa h.

Yes, forever is a long time. What does that have to do with receiving one's just dessert?

Christopher J. Freeman

Sep 13, 2005, 02:14 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Athena Iconoclast Posts: 5,077	Satan and control Prehaps we should not consider if and how a God controls us, without also considering if and how Satan controls us. Pat Robertson is really into the teaching the power of Saint. Christianity is just as much about the power of God and it is about the power of Satan. Should we be beating the devil out of children? What steps should we take to protect ourselves from Satan and his demons? Should we be carrying silver crosses and do rituals to protect ourselves and families from Satan and his demons? Satan has power on earth these days. What should we do about it? How do we rescue souls? Should we be focused on rescuing souls? Should we fill our hospitals and prisons to pray for those tormented by Satan and his demons? Like what will Satan do our country if we don't over come him?

Sep 13, 2005, 04:15 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
grandpa blasphemer Location: Michigan Posts: 7,361	Satan and God seem to be societal constructs. If anyone can prove otherwise, I'd be quite surprised. Evil things happen because people and yes, even the earth, are flawed. Some others brought up a good point--If Satan does exist it's because God created him. Other than that, does anyone deserve to suffer in hell forever? Forever is a long, long time -- even for the worst of the worst. Grandpa h.

Sep 13, 2005, 05:33 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Disinterested Go Speed Racer Location: In my mind Posts: 360	Then how can suffering and God co-exist? If God doesn't "want" suffering, and suffering exists, then God by definition is not omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent. If God is not omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent then God is not God.