Satan and control

[Jack]

I seriously doubt that you have considered any "evidence" that disproves God...If you could prove in a sience lab over and over again that God dosen't exist

I've got the same problem, robby 1957, got to get to work soon. But I'll toss out one more thought then check back once I get there.

The onus isn't on atheism to disprove gods or provide evidence of their non-existence. Believers in the gods have made a claim "god(s) exist". We are asking for substantive, credible evidence that supports this contention. It's no different than if someone claimed to have invented a perpetual motion machine. There is every reason to be dubious of such a claim, knowing as we do that the laws of nature don't allow for such a thing. If that inventor could show irrefutable evidence that this device worked, we'd need to re-examine our previous knowledge. So far, no claim proposing a perpetual motion machine has stood up to rigorous and skeptical examination. Likewise, atheists have found, through rigorous and skeptical examination, that the claims that gods exist do not have any irrefutable, credible support. If a contention offers no proof, then no proof is required to dismiss it.

Religion demands faith. Faith is a personal choice, not a quality that can be inherited, bequeathed or conferred. Atheists prefer not to accept something on faith that is unnecessary for life and has been supplanted by modern knowledge.

I'll log in again soon.

[robby 1957]

I do believe God exists ?? .. well, now were getting somewhere :) .. Step 2 .. who is this God that you say that you believe in and what does He/She require of you and me .. what does he/she say about himself/herself ?? what does this "God" say about our condition ?? PS: what did I say that gives you some indication that I would want to "control" anyone ??

[robby 1957]

One thinks of William Wilberforce and his long campaign to end the slave trade in the British Empire. Both the British and American abolitionist movements were founded, nurtured, financed and led to victory against the horrific evil of slavery by people who were most often inspired and motivated by deep religious conviction . . . .
The great social reform movements of the last half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th century (child labor reform, etc.) were often led by people of deep religious faith, Protestant and Catholic . . . . And of course, in the lifetime of many of us who were born in the last half of the 20th century, the most successful and greatest reform movement was the civil rights revolution, led by a Baptist minister, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who often said that the movement and the faith that inspired it could not be separated.
As many will remember, the civil rights revolution was supported by and led to victory in large part because of the leadership of clergy, black and white . . . .
Lastly, one is led to ask Mr. Hitchens some questions. Where are the great atheist-sponsored charitable and reform movements? Where are the atheist children homes and orphanages? Where are the atheist leaders who are taking vows of poverty and giving themselves in sacrificial service to others? As Arthur C. Brooks, professor at Syracuse University, points out in his recent book, Who Really Cares? (2006): Religious people are far more generous with their own time and money than secularists. Brooks concludes, “Religious folks are by far the most charitable people in America today.”

[robby 1957]

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways . . . but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe . . . The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven . . . . .


PS: we are forgiven

[grandpa]

Quote by: robby 1957 Oh, I seriously doubt that you have considered any "evidence" that disproves God ..

The evidence is all around us. Religion is manmade, including Christianity.

Quote by: robby 1957 have you traveled from eternity past to eternity future ??

How would I go about doing that? Do you have a flying delorean?

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: robby 1957 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways... but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe...

So, are you part of "the coming Kingdom of God"? Must a chosen one -- such as these forefathers -- be of good behaviour?

I just looked into Matthew 12:31: "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and
blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Does this mean one instance of blasphemy is held against us perpetually? What if one took his own life before "finding Jesus?"

Grandpa h.

[robby 1957]

Quote by: grandpa "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Does this mean one instance of blasphemy is held against us perpetually? What if one took his own life before "finding Jesus?"

blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the life log rejection of Jesus Christ . . . He is the solution to the cause of spiritual death (sin) your 'sins' were forgiven at the cross of Christ .. that forgivness is recieved by you (in him) you HAVE the forgivness of sins .. you could not recieve spiritual life until that had happened .. now you have the oppertunity to recieve spiritual life (eternal) the choice is yours to accept or reject .. even suicide is forgiven . . . do you understand this ?? .. if not, let's please continue .. I'll try to explain more . . . friend ??


Born Free check this out .. ok ?

[Jack]

Where are the great atheist-sponsored charitable and reform movements? Where are the atheist children homes and orphanages?

Atheism isn't an organization things are done in the name of.

“Religious folks are by far the most charitable people in America today.”

Only because they're identified as such. I would further ask, how many do so out of fear of divine retribution rather than true charity? Only they would know.

When we see these million-dollar cathedrals and crystal palaces, we can only imagine the good that could have been done with that money instead of building a fancy temple.

How many believers have donated money to anything in the amounts that Bill and Melinda Gates have, and they aren't doing it in the name of any god. I think non-believers are just as charitable as believers, we just don't have an organization to give credit to.

Where did the discussion of satan go to?

[loser]

Could it be that our concept of heaven, not any heaven that may or may not be, if we were to go there would be pretty damn boring?

What Christians expect heaven to be like:

(ISV)1Co 2:9: " But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him.""

Everyone in the world to come will be too busy to be bored...there's a whole universe to develop.

Tom Petty said, "It's Good to be King".

Jesus said:

(CEV) Luk 19:12: "and Jesus told them this story: A prince once went to a foreign country to be crowned king and then to return.
Luk 19:13 But before leaving, he called in ten servants and gave each of them some money. He told them, "Use this to earn more money until I get back."...
...Luk 19:15 After the prince had been made king, he returned and called in his servants. He asked them how much they had earned with the money they had been given.
Luk 19:16 The first servant came and said, "Sir, with the money you gave me I have earned ten times as much."
Luk 19:17 "That's fine, my good servant!" the king said. "Since you have shown that you can be trusted with a small amount, you will be given ten cities to rule."
Luk 19:18 The second one came and said, "Sir, with the money you gave me, I have earned five times as much."
Luk 19:19 The king said, "You will be given five cities.""

Busy, busy, busy...going to be busy ruling.

It is my understanding the Hebrews/Jews did not separate good from evil as the Christians have done.

Not sure where you got this misconception. The Jews separate good and evil more than anybody, especially the Christians.

According to Jewish myth (misconception), the evil went to a separate place at death (in the grave) from where the righteous went. Christianity teaches they all go to the same place. The Jews could not accept Jesus because He was crucified like a common criminal (which was unacceptable to them). Not a problem for the Christian. The Jews were racist; they would not even speak to Samaritans because they were perceived to be an accursed race. Christians are taught to accept all. The examples go on and on with the Pharisees being the perfect example.

Where in the bible does it say Satan destroyed a person or whole city?

The book of Job (Chapter 1) outlines Satan's power. While it is true that Satan can only do what God allows, it is made clear (in scripture) that he indeeds destroys lives:

(CEV) Job 1:7 the LORD asked, "Satan, where have you been?" Satan replied, "I have been going all over the earth."
Job 1:8 Then the LORD asked, "What do you think of my servant Job? No one on earth is like him--he is a truly good person, who respects me and refuses to do evil."
Job 1:9 "Why shouldn't he respect you?" Satan remarked.
Job 1:10 "You are like a wall protecting not only him, but his entire family and all his property. You make him successful in whatever he does, and his flocks and herds are everywhere.
Job 1:11 Try taking away everything he owns, and he will curse you to your face."
Job 1:12 The LORD replied, "All right, Satan, do what you want with anything that belongs to him, but don't harm Job." Then Satan left...
...Job 1:18 That servant was still speaking, when a fourth one dashed up and said, "Your children were having a feast and drinking wine at the home of your oldest son,
Job 1:19 when suddenly a windstorm from the desert blew the house down, crushing all of your children. I am the only one who escaped to tell you."
Job 1:20 When Job heard this, he tore his clothes and shaved his head because of his great sorrow. He knelt on the ground, then worshiped God
Job 1:21 and said: "We bring nothing at birth; we take nothing with us at death. The LORD alone gives and takes. Praise the name of the LORD!"
Job 1:22 In spite of everything, Job did not sin or accuse God of doing wrong.

In the NT:

(GW) 1Pe 5:8 Keep your mind clear, and be alert. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion as he looks for someone to devour.

Just a couple of many...

[robby 1957]

so what charitie/s do you give to Isherwood

Christians don't give out of fear . . . there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ .. we are his children .. eternal life is ours today and forever .. it cant be lost

[robby 1957]

Quote by: loser "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him.""[/i]

MAN !!! I can't wait . . . well, ok . . . but just for a while . . .

The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life . . . .

[loser]

I'll read the book of Job and get back to you on the matter. I personally, find it hard to believe that Satan is a literal being. I wonder what he looks like? Does the Bible say? I mean he used to be an archangel.....so he should be quite beautiful...or I guess his sinful nature made him quite ugly...and are all angels male, like god, or are there some female ones too? And Catholics don't take the bible literally...well now...Catholic is looking better and better....*sigh* I'm so unchurched...and I feel the pressure daily...Oh lord, deliver me from this dilemma! :)

(CEV) Eze 28:12 Ezekiel, son of man, sing a funeral song for the king of Tyre and tell him I am saying: At one time, you were perfect, intelligent, and good-looking.
Eze 28:13 You lived in the garden of Eden and wore jewelry made of brightly colored gems and precious stones. They were all set in gold and were ready for you on the day you were born.
Eze 28:14 I appointed a winged creature to guard your home on my holy mountain, where you walked among gems that dazzled like fire.
Eze 28:15 You were truly good from the time of your birth, but later you started doing wicked things.
Eze 28:16 You traded with other nations and became more and more cruel and evil. So I forced you to leave my mountain, and the creature that had been your protector now chased you away from the gems.
Eze 28:17 It was your good looks that made you arrogant, and you were so famous that you started acting like a fool. That's why I threw you to the ground and let other kings sneer at you.

Isa 14:12 You, the bright morning star [Lucifer], have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.
Isa 14:13 You said to yourself, "I'll climb to heaven and place my throne above the highest stars. I'll sit there with the gods far away in the north.
Isa 14:14 I'll be above the clouds, just like God Most High."
Isa 14:15 But now you are deep in the world of the dead.

The closest that the Bible comes to describing female angels is in Chapter 5 of Zechariah. Though scripture mentions males primarily, it doesn't preclude the existence of females.

As far as the Catholics, they have their own Bible, different from that used by Protestants. For example, in the Ten Commandments, they split the tenth into two separate commandments so that they could eliminate the second one (which deals with graven images). Also, they reworded the Sabbath commandment, elimanating mention of "the seventh day". The reasons should be obvious. Furthermore, they have a history of tradition which does not align with the true Christian faith.

Yes, the Catholic perversion does sound good to people not really interested in serving the one, true God.

[robby 1957]

*sigh* I'm so unchurched...and I feel the pressure daily...Oh lord, deliver me from this dilemma! :)

http://www.realanswers.net/radio/m3u/30071130.m3u .. for your listening enjoyment .. RC

[loser]

But to interpret all these biblical stories literally, runs us into trouble.

The trouble lies in not being able to discern metaphor and other figures of speech (similes, synecdoches, etc.) from the literal. To believe that the Bible is all literal or all non-literal is to be devoid of any reason at all.

I'm sure that the Bible uses every trope known to man. It should not be expected that very many people would ever understand scripture. In fact, according to scripture, it can only be spiritually discerned by those whom God has given to know.

I will also say, God walking in a garden with Adam and Eve is a Sumerian story that was translated by Hebrews and should not be taken literally. It is not a concrete fact that a God walked in a Garden with magical trees with Adam and Eve, and a talking snake and cherubs are as real as talking hens, foxes and fairies.

You are wrong to say so, however. You falsely surmise because the "magical trees" and the "talking snake" are metaphors that Adam and Eve and God and the Devil and the Garden are not real. You're not really qualified to say what is and isn't real. You only have your very uninformed opinion, no matter who wise you think yourself.

Realistically, at no time in history did humans have a special contact with God and angels that we do not have today.

A very unqualified statement. Exactly how have you existed throughout history?

Religion however, holds people to a past that doesn't work in the present, unless the holy books are understood abstractly and we appreciate the human effort in all of them.

Wrong again...very wrong, indeed.

Because that would make it all true. Nothing can be true without full evidence of the truth itself, and when this evidence arises, everyone usually excepts it. Like when Magellan sailed around the world, proving to people the Earth was round. No one, who was anywhere near objective in opinion, denied that the Earth was round after this event.

Well, then, your post is ALL non-true since some of it is non-true. FYI, Eratosthenes of Cyrene (276 BC - 194 BC) calculated the circumference of Earth around 240 BC. Of course, for more than 6,000 years most people knew the earth was round. It has always been just the ignorant, superstitious masses that have believed otherwise.

[robby 1957]

I find it amazing how the mockers-n-scoffers have always been there from the begining, are eye witnesses to all events and are the judges and jurries to what God has or has not the power to do . . . they are truely gods, knowing good and evil

[Jack]

so what charitie/s do you give to Isherwood

Sorry, I would never think to tell you what I donate to or what charitable works I do. We're debating a larger issue than what we as individuals do. Besides, this is the internet. I could tell you I give millions to Feed the Heathens and you'd never know I was exaggerating (slightly).

[Maryjane]

Where did the discussion of satan go to?

What's the matter with you Isherwood? Atheist = Satan. Need I remind you?

[robby 1957]

well .. I'm just saying that true Christian giving is a result of knowing what God has done in my life (God know my heart) .. if others give out of fear .. or give inorder to get (blag-n-grab) thats their problem . . . but back to the my origina;l point .. the study concluded that people of faith FAR out give Secular humanists . . . . peace be to you too :) RC

[Maryjane]

I know exactly what you are saying...I've heard it a million times if I heard it once.

I know exactly what is coming out of your mouth before you say it. Truth of the matter is, you would have NO idea I was an atheist unless I told you. Like Isherwood said, we don't belong to a "club."

[robby 1957]

Atheist = Satan

no .. atheist doesn't = Satan . . . . atheist = lost (forgiven, but spiritually dead)

PS: it doesn't do maryjane to discuss Satan if she/he? dosen't believe Satan exists .. does it ???