Satan and control

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Bighugs Some say it was Columbus who discorvered the world was round. Can you deny that also? My point being, nobody denies that occording to the Holy Bible, Adam and Eve were the first people . However many debate the Magellian vs Columbus Theory.

Technically, the anicent Greeks discovered it. I can't remember which greek, but he knew for sure. He even assumed that the Earth revolved around the sun that when an eclipse portrayed a print on the moon, the print was round.

I can't deny it because I wasn't there. Yet I can weigh the situtaion out and say that Magellan actually went all the way around the Earth, whereas Columbus only reached a place he thought was India.

[Lilith]

Quote by: Athena Understand? The story of Adam and Eve and Job when understood as moral stories, equal to the above mentioned moral stories, have moral lessons to teach us. This is abstract thinking, what separates humans from animals. But to interpret all these biblical stories literally, runs us into trouble. Here is where the conflict between Protestants and the rest of the world arises. Catholics have practiced abstract interpretation all along, so the problem comes with Protestants who thought reforming the church means a literal interpretation of the bible. Now Adam and Eve walking with God in a Garden is no longer a moral story we can appreciate, but becomes an argument about what is true and what is unbelievable. This argument has nothing to do with a person's moral stance. I will compare my morality with the most pious. I will also say, God walking in a garden with Adam and Eve is a Sumerian story that was translated by Hebrews and should not be taken literally. It is not a concrete fact that a God walked in a Garden with magical trees with Adam and Eve, and a talking snake and cherubs are as real as talking hens, foxes and fairies.

Very well said. That is what I am coming to believe that the Bible is also, alot of great moral stories in them, but not necessarily meaning that all these people were real or the places were real. Athena, have you ever read "When God was a Woman" by Merlin Stone(I think that is her name)...very interesting book. Traces the history of the goddess religions that predate the male dominated religions and how as the patriarch took over the female was demonized, etc. The serpant was a symbol of the Goddess, once upon a time, so the serpant tempts Eve, she falls for it and brings about the downfall of mankind...go figure.

And I have started reading the book of Job. Interesting. About as much that I can gather is this:
Sometimes bad things happen to good people, whether they deserve it or not, and one has to have faith that things will get better or that there is a reason these *bad* things are happening, a bigger purpose to it all and everything will resolve itsself in the long run. Now does that mean Satan is a literal being or God? Hmmmm....

And a sidenote: "Lilith", in some stories, was the first wife of Adam, before Eve came along, but she was rebellious and pretty much demanded equal rights alongside him and that was denied her, so she was turned into a bloodsucking demon, who fed off the blood of Adam and Eve's children, hence all the descendants of mankind. Now I resent being called a vampire! :)

[robby 1957]

Hebrews 1 . . . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways .. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son .. whom he appointed heir of all things .. and through whom he made the universe .. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

. . . . that is, if you can handle the truth ..

[robby 1957]

If you people would simply read the bible .. you would answer your own stupid questions . . . . right .. ??

. . . Man does not live by bread alone .. but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God . . . . Jesus

[nerdvincent]

Quote by: robby 1957 If you people would simply read the bible .. you would answer your own stupid questions . . . . right .. ?? . . . Man does not live by bread alone .. but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God . . . . Jesus

Don't be mistaken! I was a christian some months ago, I read Bible and I knew my religion. I just moved to something better. I've got no reason to believe Bible is the word of God, nor do I believe he got a mouth. Organized religion failed to explain God, science do. Long life to pantheism.

[robby 1957]

sorry dude .. but if you were a Christian several months ago .. you would still be a Christian today / tomarrow / forever . . . the fact that you 'walked away' is your statment that you were never were one of us . . . better luck next time .. PS: there is no such thing as a "better place" .. maybe that was your problem, you knew religion instead of knowing Him .. Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship .. I would challenge you to read the book of 1st John (toward the end of the bible) .. I'tl answer any question that you might have . . . . cheers RC

[Jack]

Standard Chick-tract concepts. How can any person judge the sincerity with which many of us once believed? We believed as deeply as our contemporaries. It's nonsensical that theists consider humans their god's greatest creation while at the same time condemning us for using our brains to question our beliefs and finding better answers than theology can offer. Oh, I know, that's satan. Sorry, but satan's an invention of the same bronze-age goat herders who brought us the Old Testament. We've read the Bible. It doesn't cut it.

Christianity, Islam and all the rest were attempts to make sense of a mysterious universe. Their answers are outdated. We no longer need religion and superstition to explain the universe. We haven't arrived at any absolute answers yet, in fact we may never answer some questions absolutely. But we have come a long way in the last several centuries in understanding nature, and we've learned to accept that some questions may never be answered absolutely.

Reality and nature trump theology and superstition for some of us.

[robby 1957]

Well .. you better hope that you're right .. if so, then the end of life will be the same for both of us .. if not, then you loose. . . . PS: you can't divorce yourself from religion .. it's what you believe .. it just needs to be defigned .. atheists are just as religious as anyone else .. if not more . . . cheers RC

[Jack]

if not, then you loose

And if it turns out that the Egyptian gods are the real ones, we both lose.

you can't divorce yourself from religion .. it's what you believe .. it just needs to be defigned .. atheists are just as religious as anyone else .. if not more

Perhaps you could expand on that thought, seeing as how I can find nothing "religious" in the acknowledgment of theism's lack of credible evidence to support their claims.

[robby 1957]

Communism was a comprehensive, all-embracing religion and not simply a political party, political system or philosophy.
This fact is illustrated by the numerous ways in which Communism embraced and attemped to promulgate peculiar quasi-religious (and often clearly anti-scientific) beliefs which had nothing all to do with politics or government.
Although Communism typically touted itself as anti-religious and pro-science, it was, in fact, deeply anti-scientific and clearly a religion.
One of Communism's hallmarks in the Soviet Union and China was its aggressive and violent suppression of other religions.
Communism was "anti-religious" only in the sense that it forcibly suppressed all religions other than itself.
From: Colin MacCabe, Godard: A Portrait of the Artist at Seventy, Farrar, Straus and Giroux: New York (2003), page 398:
The Soviet dictator said:
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense."
- E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin

[Jack]

Communism was a comprehensive, all-embracing religion and not simply a political party, political system or philosophy...Communism was "anti-religious" only in the sense that it forcibly suppressed all religions other than itself.

So this source is saying that there was nothing truly atheistic about Communism. I agree. Trying to equate atheism with Communism is misleading and, as your source shows, inaccurate.

[robby 1957]

to make a long story short .. this idea that I'm religious because I believe in God and that you're not religious because you don't believe in God is nonsence . . . ok ??

[Jack]

You're free to dismiss your beliefs as nonsense, but I am an atheist as the result of many years of study and experience (including several years as a theist), so I don't consider my conclusions to be nonsensical. Or maybe you meant something else.

[robby 1957]

Atheism is a widespread BELIEF that reason and faith are incompatible and opposed to each other. Faith is viewed as subjective, emotional, a crutch for those who find the real world too hard. Though many of the world’ s finest minds hold this view, the Bible teaches that it is the fool who says there is no God. . . . later Isherwood .. I got a job to do .. nice chatin with ya .. RC

[grandpa]

Quote by: robby 1957 Atheism is a widespread BELIEF that reason and faith are incompatible and opposed to each other. Faith is viewed as subjective, emotional, a crutch for those who find the real world too hard.

You are aware of this, yet you retain religion? Anyway, yes, religion and reason are ultimately opposed to each other. One is a means to control peoples, built on deceit -- the other is a means of freeing people from many controls and is based on evidence. This is not merely a belief. There is a lot of evidence, both going back to the ancients and available in contemporary times. Both faith and reason involve responses to the world, but one is more deeply rooted in superstition and dogma.

Grandpa h.

[robby 1957]

Oh, I seriously doubt that you have considered any "evidence" that disproves God .. have you traveled from eternity past to eternity future ?? no .. have you traveled beyond the second heaven .. I don't think so .. I'll bet you haven't even read any of Lee Strobels work ( LeeStrobel.com - Resource for Apologetics Videos with Lee Strobel ) .. no not a bit ?? .. your issue is not an information issue .. it's a heart issue .. Eyes to see, but cannot percieve .. ears to hear, but cannot understand .. ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth .. so sorry Grandpa .. RC

[robby 1957]

But I would agree with you about religion .. (man made religion) controlling / decietful / bondage .. Jesus said that we can know the truth, and that the truth will set us free .. FREE indeed . . . :) RC

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: robby 1957 Atheism is a widespread BELIEF that reason and faith are incompatible and opposed to each other.

I'd be curious where this definition came from. On at least one other thread at Volvonvo we've had a battle of definitions...

Atheism requires indoctrination

So far, four dictionaries disagree. (Scroll to see other quotes. Should be on the same page.)

[robby 1957]

If you could prove in a sience lab over and over again that God dosen't exist, you might have a point (screw the dictionary) but here is my challenge to you . . . . you go create something that has the ability to contemplate you .. and THEN I might consider (again) your theory of Godless evolution . . . . :) RC

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: robby 1957 If you could prove in a sience lab over and over again that God dosen't exist, you might have a point (screw the dictionary) but here is my challenge to you . . . . you go create something that has the ability to contemplate you .. and THEN I might consider (again) your theory of Godless evolution . . . . :) RC

You cannot prove something doesn't exist. But, BTW, I do believe God exists and I would never ask you, or anyone, to prove that God does. You're making assumptions here about "my theory...' (What, am I Darwin now?)... or that the dictionary can't help you... (Ah, "screw," nice argument formulation from a "Christian.")...

Ah, but I can contemplate God or God(s)... personally I'm more of the former.

Evolution isn't necessarily "Godless," sorry. I know it's painted by literalists that way. In fact if Intelligent Design wasn't used so often as an excuse to bash evolution and push old fashioned Creationism, I'd be quite interested. I think God most likely was involved in the process. How much, how little... well that's another interesting debate.

Isn't this thread about "Satan and Control?" Well as far as "control:" as you posts do seem to be pointed somewhat in that direction. But personally, I hope you're not auditioning for the first.