Satan and control

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Athena what are the laws that control God's rule?

Heh! Laws don't control God! He establishes the laws! Gravitation, thermodynamics, nuclear interactions, instinctual behavior, etc. He designed it all. The rule of God is sovereign, not whimsical. It has always been consistent.

Why do I get the impression that you folks just want to argue? Do you think you are making my beliefs look silly? Look, we are just talking here. I can understand your objections to the communities of faith. Some of the guys you hate are my enemies, too. Somehow they they think that supporting government tyranny is loyalty to their faith. I am a libertarian, as far as a Christian can be one. I don't support pushing my beliefs on anyone. Likewise, I don't want anyone jerking my chain about my expression of faith.

Anyhow I have probably expressed enough on this suject for now. This board is so atheist that it's rare to have a discussion where people can see my points...

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Starboy Ken, ever read Twain's "Captain Stormfield's Visit To Heaven"? Starboy

Damn, no! I thought I'd read everything by Clemens. I'll have to look that one up.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Heh! Laws don't control God! He establishes the laws! Gravitation, thermodynamics, nuclear interactions, instinctual behavior, etc. He designed it all. The rule of God is sovereign, not whimsical. It has always been consistent. Why do I get the impression that you folks just want to argue? Do you think you are making my beliefs looks silly? Look, we are just talking here. I can understand your objections to the communities of faith. Some of the guys you hate are my enemies, too. Somehow they they think that supporting government tyranny is loyalty to their faith. I am a libertarian, as far as a Christian can be one. I don't support pushing my beliefs on anyone. Likewise, I don't want anyone jerking my chain about my expression of faith. Anyhow I have probably expressed enough on this suject for now. This board is so atheist that it's rare to have a discussion where people can see my points...

Sorry, I didn't know you were Christian, and did not intend to offend you. I was really getting off on the the thoughts this discussion was stimulating in my head. Big disappointment to reach that degree of pleasure and become aware you feel hurt by what is being said. I really had a point I wanted to make, and thought because we both feel strongly about democracy we were on the same side.

The philosophers of Athens determined, reason, is the controlling force of the universe. This concept seems to be going over the heads of Christians. I thought you grasped it, but reading your post here I see you there is some kind of problem. What made Athens democracy different from all the world, is this concept that God is reason. Democracy is all about understanding that reasoning and making laws with knowledge of the universal laws. If God is reason, God is not outside of that reason, is not a supernatural power competing with another supernatural power we call Satan. God is not separate from His creation. We are not separate from God.

Did God cause planets to have gravity because this is what he wanted, or because this is what works? The answer is the difference between rule by whim or rule by reason, and if we don't believe in rule by reason, than we won't turn to science, but to a God. All those people praying in New Orleans, believing their God protects them, instead of all those people in New Orleans dealing with the reality of the danger they were living with. NOW I CRY. I CRY FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE DIED NEEDLESSLY THROUGHOUT HISTORY, BECAUSE THEY TRUSTED IN A GOD TO PROTECT THEM AND WERE NOT SCIENTIFIC AND REALISTIC. You want to change things for the better, but do not understand a God of reason. You are defending a belief that has prevented us from knowing the truth and dealing with it. Such as people win wars because they are in God's favor, and God doesn't tell their leaders to go war. My heart is truly saddened by this. If I could draw a picture for how I feel about this, it would be a person in a boat reaching out to someone in the water in danger of drowing and their hands can not meet. Two wanting the same thing, but unable to agree on how to achieve that. This is a terrible blow to my sense of hope. Sincerely.

[kingjust]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Heh! Laws don't control God! He establishes the laws! Gravitation, thermodynamics, nuclear interactions, instinctual behavior, etc. He designed it all. The rule of God is sovereign, not whimsical. It has always been consistent. Why do I get the impression that you folks just want to argue? Do you think you are making my beliefs look silly? Look, we are just talking here. I can understand your objections to the communities of faith. Some of the guys you hate are my enemies, too. Somehow they they think that supporting government tyranny is loyalty to their faith. I am a libertarian, as far as a Christian can be one. I don't support pushing my beliefs on anyone. Likewise, I don't want anyone jerking my chain about my expression of faith. Anyhow I have probably expressed enough on this suject for now. This board is so atheist that it's rare to have a discussion where people can see my points...

Hey PH, I just have a couple of questions for you. I have gone over this with my wife and she just avoids the question. I'm an agnogstic/atheist, and I respect your views and your opinions, but here is my question to you. You speak of faith, great!! What is faith, in short believing in something with out any logical proof or physical evidence, correct? So with that established, your comment of knowing that "HE" or "GOD" established these laws sounds as if you know they are fact, and are they? How do you know they are facts, and if they are facts, faith is out the door because my understanding is that you cannot believe in God with out faith, in any aspects. Isn't that living a contradicting lifestyle, you know God does something then on the flip you don't know if he does something but you have faith that he will do something or he protects you with out knowing. If you state that he did create these laws, then he is able to be proven the he exists through physical evidence, right? Basically,........how can you state as fact that an entity did something (basically nullifying the essence of faith), but are unable to prove his existance? I'm not challenging your faith, though it may sound like it, i'm just curious on what you think. And also this can go for Satan as well, just replace God with Satan.

Note: Let's stay in the confines of the topic Satan, God, and religion. Do not bring in things like, you can't see air......you can't see gravity.........it will just dilute what I think to be a very trying and interesting question to people of religion. Thanks

[Lilith]

Quote by: Athena I am not opposed to God. Being opposed to God makes no sense to me at all. However, I am ready to go to hell, because that is where I will be needed. Heaven being prefect, means no one is needed there. There will be no great stories to write and no great movies, because there will be nothing to write about. There will be no need to learn anything and no problems to resolve. I am afraid I just couldn't handle an eternity in heaven. Whereas in hell, there will be so much to do, and as soon as I get there I can start making things better. I will have eternity to make things better, and that works for me.

Now that's cool. I have never had it put quite like that before.

[Athena]

Quote by: Lilith Now that's cool. I have never had it put quite like that before.

Thanks Lilith, and I have a problem with all those people in hurry to get to heaven for themselves, and caring nothing about those in hell who need them.

I can not imagine someone doing feeling good and doing a bad thing. It is when we feel bad that we do bad things. Surely if everyone felt God's love everyone would be good, and I can not understand why an omi God can't be the sun light warming everyone. How just is it for a child to come to life in a very bad situation and grow up with fear and pain, and no hope of life being better, and then judge this person, the same as those who came to life in good homes, good nieghborhoods and were always protected and advantaged? This is not justice and democracy is suppose to move towards the justice a God has not given us. I have hard feelings towards those who feel no responsibility for social justice for all, but trust in a God.

[Disinterested]

Quote by: Ken Carman Agreed. If we are part of "sport" should we watch out for God's thunder bolts like a deer should look for the bullet? Are we some video game played between God and Satan? Not sure I'd want to worship any being who would add Satan, or evil, for "sport."

The Book of Job was basically a wager between "benevolent" God and Satan.

[Disinterested]

Quote by: Ken Carman Damn, no! I thought I'd read everything by Clemens. I'll have to look that one up.

His travel books are the best. I liked Innocents Abroad.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Ken Carman Damn, no! I thought I'd read everything by Clemens. I'll have to look that one up.

If you haven't read "Eve's Diary" that is also a hoot.

Starboy

[Two Cents]

Katrina sure showed the mercy of your god.

[CJFreeman]

Quote by: Two Cents Katrina sure showed the mercy of your god.

Translation: I'm angry that bad stuff happens in a sinful world.

Christopher J. Freeman

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: CJFreeman Translation: I'm angry that bad stuff happens in a sinful world. Christopher J. Freeman

Translation of Translation: I'm angry that he has a good point.

[Boetie]

PatrickHenry posts:This is the serpent's argument. I know where that led, you sneaky snake

Pat, I hate to break the news to you but the serpent was sent by a God higher and more perfect than the deranged one you bend over for. It's a positive thing for Adam to see how demented is the god you worship.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Boetie It's a positive thing for Adam to see how demented is the god you worship.

Like what you worship is better...

[Athena]

This thread is not about God but Satan. How many people think there is a supernatural being called Satan? What did God use to make Satan? What is the substance of this being? Is this being as omipotent as God? Why not? What are the rules that empower Satan and limit Satan's power? Are we evil because of Satan? If there were no Satan would we still be evil? Come on please! I think we can agree we are in trouble. Now why are we in trouble? Is it God allowing this, Satan causing it, or just human decisions?

[CJFreeman]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Translation of Translation: I'm angry that he has a good point.

A good point? Hardly. Try doing some research into theodicy. Then when you've figured out that your point is entirely hackneyed, we'll get on to something a little more intelligent.

Christopher J. Freeman

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Athena This thread is not about God but Satan. How many people think there is a supernatural being called Satan? What did God use to make Satan? What is the substance of this being? Is this being as omipotent as God? Why not? What are the rules that empower Satan and limit Satan's power? Are we evil because of Satan? If there were no Satan would we still be evil? Come on please! I think we can agree we are in trouble. Now why are we in trouble? Is it God allowing this, Satan causing it, or just human decisions?

What did God use to make Satan?

Satan is made of used toilet paper rolls and all those pens you've lost over the years. His brimstone breath was actually a reject product from the Listerine labs. :eek:

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[Two Cents]

Patrick Henry, I don't worship anything blindly. Especially something that I can't see, hear or feel. You also asked what created me. Again, this is nature and biology, I don't live at the whim of a god but by the laws of nature.

I also don't want anyone to "translate" anything for me. Katrina is an act of nature, not god and bad things do happen to good people. That's because nature doesn't discriminate. The people caught in that hurricane were from all walks of life. Nothing targeted a particular population.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Two Cents Patrick Henry, I don't worship anything blindly. Especially something that I can't see, hear or feel. You also asked what created me. Again, this is nature and biology, I don't live at the whim of a god but by the laws of nature. I also don't want anyone to "translate" anything for me. Katrina is an act of nature, not god and bad things do happen to good people. That's because nature doesn't discriminate. The people caught in that hurricane were from all walks of life. Nothing targeted a particular population.

I'll bet a lot of this is related to the other thread I started, previous to this one, "God and Control." Back in the Old Testament days every plague, storm, whatever, was an act of God. Of course I believe that the authors cherry picked calamities that "proved" their point, their faith. I'm sure other authors and theists did the same.

Yes, Katrina is an act of nature, if you believe God doesn't micro-manage things. Unless of course you believe Satan sent Katrina, but that is just as flawed as the other. In his final years my father, quite the skeptic, started attending a Pentacostal church. I remember him commenting about some believers who prayed and prayed until a snow storm cleared and they found themselves close to their destination. I shot back, "Yes, but what about all the bones of believers whose prayers weren't answered?" And I would also add what about all those non-believers and doubters who didn't stop to pray and found their way home? Natural forces are part of this planet and to blame them on God, or Satan, is silly. Any deity who would do that would be rather stupidly sadistic. If you're going to take out people as a deity you would think at least only the unfaithful, the infidels, the unbelievers would die. But the infindel and the faithful die along side the faithful. Unless you believe some deity is striking out in anger blindly. But that sounds more like a human trait to me. :(

[Athena]

Quote by: Ken Carman Satan is made of used toilet paper rolls and all those pens you've lost over the years. His brimstone breath was actually a reject product from the Listerine labs. :eek: Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Thank you for adding some humor to this debate. :) I think if people stop trying to win these arguments by insulting each other, and actually think about the questions until concieving a good answer we could achieve peace. I am looking for the Hindu who presents an understanding that very interest me.