Satan and control

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry "We" meaning you and your family? What a bunch of barbarians! Where do you live? Don't include me in your "we" OK?Same way I can point a Glock at your head and not pull the trigger. Just because I can doesn't mean I have to. All you atheists on this thread are forgetting one little thing. You didn't make yourselves...Probably a nicer one than yours, merciful, loving, kind and wise. Like a better version of me.

You know the bible says God is jealous, revengeful, fearsome, punishing. You are speaking of a liberal, and Pat Robertson will tell you these liberal democrats are what has gone wrong with the US. God is not a liberal!

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Athena a God that rules by whim.

God's plans are not whims. Whatever He proposes comes to pass. Some things He does are beyond our limited understanding. He is still entirely righteous and good.

Quote by: Athena God is not a liberal!

Indeed! Not a conservative either, nor a Democrat or a Republican! Sticking a label on God is impossible, so don't bother trying...

[Disinterested]

Quote by: PatrickHenry God allows some things He doesn't like to exist. That's the only way He can allow free will. Is this too big a concept to wrap your finite mind around, Disinterested? Not for me... It all redounds to His Power and Glory.

The free will argument is independent from the logical construct that if God allows things He doesn't like to exist, than he is not omnipotent and by definition is not God.

There's no way around it. St. Thomas Aquinas nearly went nuts trying to rationalize this paradox regarding God.

[Boetie]

I've noticed the blame of the world's ills is being put on man. One can find the root of that outlook from the blasphemous religions, Islam, Judaism and Chrisitanity.

The problem is that whenever we start talking about something which all human beings have in common, we tend to assume that this shared aspect is fixed and unchangeable.

Try a thought experiment. Think of yourself and your own characteristics. Give your qualities their names and try to keep out all references to anyone else. Let's say you think of yourself as kind, but how can you know that without making any reference to other people?

It's amazing how these blashpemous religions has dupped man for thousands of years. This is from the fact that their God created the world and called it good and we are to take this God's word for it. The reality is this God did not want you to eat the tree of knowledge because you would then open your eyes and see for yourself what this world is. It is a world where dog chases cat hence pain, where cat eats mouse hence pain, where a living virus infects your body hence pain, it is the world of matter.

But those of you whom are minions of the Demiurge keep yourself in ignorance by saying, "when you becomes ill it isn't because of the world of matter, it's because you've sinned."

The book of Job was an attempt to answer the question "why does bad things happened to good people?" the problem with that story is that it came out with a happy hollywood ending and ended up not answering the question.

The fault is the Demiurge that created matter. Steer clear of those blasphemous religions that bow to this deranged God that created matter.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: PatrickHenry "We" meaning you and your family? What a bunch of barbarians!

Oh, come on. We'll invite you over. We're having a barbecue this weekend. I promise you'll find it... well done.

Of course I was speaking of the family of man (and women)... humanity. But I'm sure you know that.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Disinterested St. Thomas Aquinas nearly went nuts

Good thing I am not as intellectual as Brother Thomas A. This paradox doesn't bother me..

Quote by: Boetie The reality is this God did not want you to eat the tree of knowledge because you would then open your eyes and see for yourself what this world is.

This is the serpent's argument. I know where that led, you sneaky snake!

Quote by: Ken Carman I was speaking of the family of man (and women)... humanity.

Well not every family engages in the barbarities! I guess you COULD say "we" are all one big family, but as for me, I disown some of the ethically challenged members...

[Disinterested]

If this God created all creatures, didn't He create the Serpent? If the Serpent was evil and God is benevolent, then why'd God create the Serpent in the first place?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Disinterested If the Serpent was evil and God is benevolent, then why'd God create the Serpent in the first place?

Good question! Although I don't claim to know the mind of God, it would seem that in the poetic imagery of the story, the serpent does represent evil (or Satan in the context of this thread.) As I mentioned before, the being Lucifer was filled with pride and thought to exalt himself against his Creator, The Most High. His hubris was not acceptable, and he was 86ed from the presence of the Holy One.

Lucifer didn't start out evil, but chose it as his pathway to greatness...He devolved to the evil entity we call Satan. Evidence for this is only the scripture. I don't have any personal knowledge of events that far back in the past, you understand.

[pit bull]

as christ was the invisible of his people from egyptian bondage, so was satan the unseen leader of his subjects in this horrible work of multiplying martyrs. for seven days the massacre was continued in paris, the first three with inconceivable fury. and it was not confined to the city itself, but by special order of the king was extended to all the provinces and towns where protestants were found. neither age nor sex was respected. neither the innocent babe nor the man of grey hairs was spared noble and peasant, old and young, mother and child, were cut down together

[Disinterested]

So God created Lucifer by definition if God created everything and is all knowing and all powerful. If God is all good, why'd he create Lucifer?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Disinterested If God is all good, why'd he create Lucifer?

Another good question! I like you, Disinterested, in spite of your unfortunate username!

In answer to your question, though, I don't know! Maybe because He is a good sport and wanted to add a little challenge to His game of universal creation? That's purely speculation, since His ways are far above my capacity to understand.

[Disinterested]

Ok, this is neverending, but it's fun so I'll continue. If God created Man in His image, why isn't Man as perfect as God and knows everything as God does? Furthermore, why would God want Man to be confused and choose evil over good sometimes?

Creating evil is being a "good sport"? Interesting concept that acknowleges God is not benevolent.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Disinterested Creating evil is being a "good sport"? Interesting concept that acknowleges God is not benevolent.

Well you said that, not me. I have found Him benevolent. As I said, I really don't know His mind and was engaging in speculation. And you are misconstruing my statements in saying that He "created evil". I said He created Lucifer, who later became evil. Important distinction.

Quote by: Disinterested If God created Man in His image, why isn't Man as perfect as God and knows everything as God does? Furthermore, why would God want Man to be confused and choose evil over good sometimes?

God gave man an independence of mind in the hope that there would be a willingness to join freely in God's concerns. To create automatons is no challenge. Mankind has the ability to do that on a limited basis already. Why don't we know everything that an omniscient omnipotent Creator knows? LOL! Maybe because we are limited by the physical forms we inhabit, while His Spirit is unlimited? More speculation, but it seems reasonable...

Certainly God doesn't WANT people to be confused or to choose evil. That is a part and parcel of the free will paradigm however.

[YourTokah]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Another good question! I like you, Disinterested, in spite of your unfortunate username! In answer to your question, though, I don't know! Maybe because He is a good sport and wanted to add a little challenge to His game of universal creation? That's purely speculation, since His ways are far above my capacity to understand.

Read "To Reign in Hell" by Brust.... interesting take on how god and satan and lucifer came into Being.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Disinterested Ok, this is neverending, but it's fun so I'll continue. If God created Man in His image, why isn't Man as perfect as God and knows everything as God does? Furthermore, why would God want Man to be confused and choose evil over good sometimes? Creating evil is being a "good sport"? Interesting concept that acknowleges God is not benevolent.

Agreed. If we are part of "sport" should we watch out for God's thunder bolts like a deer should look for the bullet? Are we some video game played between God and Satan? Not sure I'd want to worship any being who would add Satan, or evil, for "sport."

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: YourTokah Read "To Reign in Hell" by Brust.... interesting take on how god and satan and lucifer came into Being.

I like Clemen's (Twain) "Letters from the Earth"

[Starboy]

Ken, ever read Twain's "Captain Stormfield's Visit To Heaven"?

Starboy

[pit bull]

if only man would learn from the examples in history. people who cannot learn from the mistakes and errors of the past are destined to repeat them, and the lord in prophercy told us that a time of trouble is coming such as never has been since their was a nation even to this day because the majority wont learn, but jesus is prepareing the people and they can both see and hear that is who we are constantly trying to reach.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry God's plans are not whims. Whatever He proposes comes to pass. Some things He does are beyond our limited understanding. He is still entirely righteous and good. Indeed! Not a conservative either, nor a Democrat or a Republican! Sticking a label on God is impossible, so don't bother trying...

If God does not rule by whim, than what are the laws that control God's rule?

[Athena]

Quote by: Boetie I've noticed the blame of the world's ills is being put on man. One can find the root of that outlook from the blasphemous religions, Islam, Judaism and Chrisitanity. The problem is that whenever we start talking about something which all human beings have in common, we tend to assume that this shared aspect is fixed and unchangeable. Try a thought experiment. Think of yourself and your own characteristics. Give your qualities their names and try to keep out all references to anyone else. Let's say you think of yourself as kind, but how can you know that without making any reference to other people? It's amazing how these blashpemous religions has dupped man for thousands of years. This is from the fact that their God created the world and called it good and we are to take this God's word for it. The reality is this God did not want you to eat the tree of knowledge because you would then open your eyes and see for yourself what this world is. It is a world where dog chases cat hence pain, where cat eats mouse hence pain, where a living virus infects your body hence pain, it is the world of matter. But those of you whom are minions of the Demiurge keep yourself in ignorance by saying, "when you becomes ill it isn't because of the world of matter, it's because you've sinned." The book of Job was an attempt to answer the question "why does bad things happened to good people?" the problem with that story is that it came out with a happy hollywood ending and ended up not answering the question. The fault is the Demiurge that created matter. Steer clear of those blasphemous religions that bow to this deranged God that created matter.

Boetie, I very much enjoy your post. I am kind of shocked by the failure of others to pick up on the fact that this creation of matter is not all good. Unlike the heaven some imagine, we deal with draughts and famine, swarms of locust and other insects that harm humans, earthquakes, volcanos, hurricanes, floods, tornados etc. and if we get threw the gauntlet of life, we can escape old age and death. But do we really want it to be any different? I don't. If life weren't challenging, no one would want to play the game. I think the worst problem humans have is failure to honest and failure to love truth, while they live on denial and delusion, not really in life, but always on the side lines waiting a heaven that different.