Satan and control

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Not at all! What most folks can't get a grip on is that we humans are a little like God, but He is not at all like us. Do you deny the existence of evil? If not, what is its source?

So we were NOT created "in his image?" If so, then God is certainly somewhat like us, otherwise the whole concept is beyond nonsensical.

No. Perhaps I was mid-edit when you typed this. If so, hit refresh and you'll see my response to this. Evil comes from within humanity, in my opinion. Our refusal to face that has caused more evil than any supposed Satan could imagine.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Ken Carman I believe God is more mature than I, or especially that petulant child I mentioned. If there is a heaven then it will be a great awakening where, without animosity or sadistic torment, I realize where I have strayed and where I have chosen the right path. And yes, perhaps my creator and I will share more than a few laughs about it all.

No quarrel with you there, Ken. I don't buy into the legalistic stuff some Christians pump out. I think God is very tolerant of our questions. What I think will get in a person's way is pride on Judgement Day. We should learn to practice humility before Him; it'll come in handy when we are judged.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Ken Carman So we were NOT created "in his image?" If so, then God is certainly somewhat like us, therwise the whole concept is nonsensical.

The concept makes sense like this: He is sentient, we are sentient. He has a personality(not just a force), we have personality. He is creative, we are creative. He is the source of love, we also generate love naturally. Are we EXACTLY like Him? Obviously not... He is the Universal Creator, unlimited by time and space. He is incorporeal.

Quote by: Ken Carman No. Perhaps I was mid-edit when you typed this. If so, hit refresh and you'll see my response to this. Evil comes from within humanity, in my opinion. Our refusal to face that has caused more evil than any supposed Satan could imagine.

Do you think all evil is from the soul of humanity? What about good?

[pit bull]

SECONd beast _the nation of u.s.arising in historyas the 1st beastsuffers deadly wound;rev 13:11and i beheld another beast comming up out of the earth and he had two horns like a lamb and he spake as a dragon .12 and he exerciseth all the of the power of frist beast before him and causeth the earth and them which dwell therin to worship the frist beast whose deadly wound was heald .13 and he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the site of men,14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth, by (means oof)those miracles wich he had power to do in the sight off the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live 15 and he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the of the beast shuold be ---------------.16 and he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, 17 and that no man might buy or sell save, he that had the mark, or the name of the beast or the number of his name. a wise man once wrote ..the thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that what shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun is there any thing whereof it may be said, see, this is new? it hath been already of old time; was before us.- Ecc1;9-10

[RickSp]

God is Satan and Satan is God, if either exist at all, outside of the minds of his followers, which I see no evidence for.

If God is all powerful, then he also must be Satan. Otherwise why would he allow Satan to exist? Satan seems to exist theologically as a reminder of a polythesisc past and as a solution, more or less, of the problem of evil.

[oranged]

Quote by: PatrickHenry What WILL he do? Or what HAS he done?

Lol, yeah, I really admire Satans ability to get things done without even existing, If I could do that I would have started a political movement 500 years ago.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: PatrickHenry The concept makes sense like this: He is sentient, we are sentient. He has a personality(not just a force), we have personality. He is creative, we are creative. He is the source of love, we also generate love naturally. Are we EXACTLY like Him? Obviously not... He is the Universal Creator, unlimited by time and space. He is incorporeal. Do you think all evil is from the soul of humanity? What about good?

Are we EXACTLY like Him?

We obvious agree, somewhat, because I typed...

then God is certainly somewhat like us

All evil? I wouldn't even pretend to think that. From where else? Aliens, creatures more intelligent than we think they are... any sentient being. Does this preclude Satan? No. But, personally, I feel it's quite unlikely.

Good? As defined by what we do and say to each other? Yes. As defined by other sentient beings, if they exist? No. I would never claim we are responsible for evil that comes out of others. But I do believe evil is connected. The evil the Native Americans perpetrated on us is directly connected to what we did to them. And it grows because we allow it to. Unlike the Aztecs, we may not pull out a beating heart but we do cook others in their own skins and apply electric voltages to testicles all because of some "eveil" done to us. A lot of evil happens because we think we are responding to evil. I remember a study that showed how wars have gone from having rules of engagement where civilians are considered improper targets to carpet bombing cities to Hiroshima to... It grows. It feeds on itself. And blaming it on Satan is just an escape hatch for those who do not wish to face the evil they may do to overcome the evil others do.

One thing the bible has right. It will probably lead to our extinction, but not because of some struggle between Satan and God. The struggle with evil is within ourselves and until we recognize that we will continue down this path.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: oranged Lol, yeah, I really admire Satans ability to get things done without even existing, If I could do that I would have started a political movement 500 years ago.

Here is what "Satan" has done...

Amongst so many things he has allowed men to think they can burn women alive for being witches. "Satan" has allowed Hitler and his troops to wear belt bucles that read "Gott mit uns," (God is with us, or on our side) while the other side, as in all wars, believes the same, the Crusades, the Inquisition, even the current hellhole called Iraq can be connect to competing theocrats who view the infidel (remember we are "the great Satan") as an agent of Satan. There have been those on our side who use the same rhetoric when speaking of Islam.

In short the concept of Satan vs God is directly linked to the evil WE have committed. How? Because if your fighting evil and do something evil, like killing someone, it's not viewed as murder. You're no longer hurting someone else but doing God's work, battling evil. Satan is often an excuse to become more evil. Satan may not exist, but humans are pretty damn good at using the concept of Satan to excuse evil acts they wish to commit.

[northtexan]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 In order to respect the beliefs of Satanists, we shouldn't do anything.

We don't have to respect the beliefs of Satanists (insofar as they exist) or any other religion. What we need to respect is their right to those beliefs.

[northtexan]

Quote by: Disinterested If Satan didn't exist, would God have to invent him? How else would Judeo-Christians be able to explain suffering and misery?

God and Satan: good cop, bad cop. That's true, that's how they have been used, no matter whether or not they exist.

Quote by: Disinterested If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, why would He want his creation to suffer?

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, isn't she rather bored by now? Given that, how could she possibly remain benevolent? What is omnipotence and omniscience other than human elaborations on the concept we have developed of infinity, attributed to a being that may or may not exist despite the logical contradictions that such attribution raises?

[Two Cents]

More harm and death have been done in "the name of god" than in the name of satan. Unbelievable that people kill others because they don't have the same god.

By the way, what "personality" does god have?

[northtexan]

Quote by: PatrickHenry You're the one making the allegation about suffering and God. I didn't say what you are asking about, and I don't think He wants suffering.

The question was about the coexistence of omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolence.

Quote by: PatrickHenry God allows some things He doesn't like to exist. That's the only way He can allow free will. Is this too big a concept to wrap your finite mind around, Disinterested? Not for me... It all redounds to His Power and Glory.

How can free will coexist with omnipotence and omniscience?

[Two Cents]

Free will is by and from people. I don't see how anyone could think that some power somewhere has a way to make people do things. Good and evil come from within, not from a force.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Do you deny the existence of evil? If not, what is its source?

Define evil, without the supernatural mumbo jumbo, and you have the answer to why "evil" exists in PEOPLE in the first place.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: northtexan We don't have to respect the beliefs of Satanists (insofar as they exist) or any other religion. What we need to respect is their right to those beliefs.

Agreed, although I've always felt that Satanism, worshiping Satan, wouldn't exist if Christianity didn't exist. It's kind of a pendulum thing. Some people will automatically go for the opposite. Most Satanists I've seen interviewed seem silly to me and the Satanic "bible," which I have read, is down right silly. It really is pretty much a knee jerk reaction to Christianity.

Of course some people think "Wiccan" when someone speaks of Satan worship. That is a misconception.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: northtexan We don't have to respect the beliefs of Satanists (insofar as they exist) or any other religion. What we need to respect is their right to those beliefs.

Many unfortunately don't see it that way.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Ken Carman we do cook others in their own skins and apply electric voltages to testicles all because of some "eveil" done to us.

"We" meaning you and your family? What a bunch of barbarians! Where do you live? Don't include me in your "we" OK?

Quote by: northtexan How can free will coexist with omnipotence and omniscience?

Same way I can point a Glock at your head and not pull the trigger. Just because I can doesn't mean I have to.

All you atheists on this thread are forgetting one little thing. You didn't make yourselves...

Quote by: Two Cents By the way, what "personality" does god have?

Probably a nicer one than yours, merciful, loving, kind and wise. Like a better version of me.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I see God's victories every day. Satan has some too, but prophecy indicates he's lost already and doesn't acknowledge it. Satan was created by God. Or rather the precursor being, Lucifer, was the mightiest angel. Angels are created beings. God is the Uncreated. Lucifer's pride brought rebellion against the Most High. He was ejected from his position of greatness in the kingdom of eternal Holiness. Now he seeks the destruction of all the beauty and goodness that God has created. He has some limited success, true. The Eternal Torment is designated for Satan and his servants, the demonic powers. It was never meant for humanity. But some choose it in their rejection of the mercy of the Most High. This is not God's plan. But His allowance for free will is the only thing that prevents us from being automatons. We can choose God or choose to bypass His offer of Eternity with Him. The Soul is a construct of God. Once made, it cannot be unmade. The generous offer God has made is Eternity with Him in the Kingdom of Light. Eternal Torment is the agony of the soul is its self-imposed separation from Him...If you exalt yourself against God, you are the loser.

Let's see, God created Adam out of mud or dust, depending on which version of the story you read. What did he use to create Satan?

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I see God's victories every day. Satan has some too, but prophecy indicates he's lost already and doesn't acknowledge it. Satan was created by God. Or rather the precursor being, Lucifer, was the mightiest angel. Angels are created beings. God is the Uncreated. Lucifer's pride brought rebellion against the Most High. He was ejected from his position of greatness in the kingdom of eternal Holiness. Now he seeks the destruction of all the beauty and goodness that God has created. He has some limited success, true. The Eternal Torment is designated for Satan and his servants, the demonic powers. It was never meant for humanity. But some choose it in their rejection of the mercy of the Most High. This is not God's plan. But His allowance for free will is the only thing that prevents us from being automatons. We can choose God or choose to bypass His offer of Eternity with Him. The Soul is a construct of God. Once made, it cannot be unmade. The generous offer God has made is Eternity with Him in the Kingdom of Light. Eternal Torment is the agony of the soul is its self-imposed separation from Him...If you exalt yourself against God, you are the loser.

I am not opposed to God. Being opposed to God makes no sense to me at all. However, I am ready to go to hell, because that is where I will be needed. Heaven being prefect, means no one is needed there. There will be no great stories to write and no great movies, because there will be nothing to write about. There will be no need to learn anything and no problems to resolve. I am afraid I just couldn't handle an eternity in heaven. Whereas in hell, there will be so much to do, and as soon as I get there I can start making things better. I will have eternity to make things better, and that works for me.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Not at all! What most folks can't get a grip on is that we humans are a little like God, but He is not at all like us. He is a sentient being, true. He has a personality, true. Otherwise, He is utterly different. He is unlimited by time and space for example. On the contrary, THEY are limited by Him. They are His constructs. So when we try to generalize our finite limited reason and wisdom to extend over God, we are engaged in futility. He is sovereign over all Creation, we have a limited creative ability. Satan will be taken care of in the final windup of this universe. Who knows how many universes preceded this one? Or how many will be created and destroyed after? The unlimited Creator can do as He wishes. And although He has revealed a bit of Himself to us, most of His being remains obscure. Do you deny the existence of evil? If not, what is its source?

I am having a huge problem with your concept of God. I can not accept a God that rules by whim. I believe the universe operates with mathematical precision, by laws. I do not believe there is a law by which a God can create a Satan that can will to violate the rules.
We should not be projecting ourselves into supernatural beings canlled God and Satan.