God and the law

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Athena Okay, the subject of the thread is God and laws, and your commnet is closer to the subject than some. Our civil laws are based on our world view and our concept of God is part of our world view. For example, the bible tells us to stone people and in some countries this is practiced. Do we believe God told the Hebrews to stone people? If so, we aren't we doing that?

I find this to be a very interesting topic, and I have not yet recieved a satisfactory answer to that question from any Christian or any readings of my own. You make an excellent point. I still don't see why Jews don't follow the ancient laws of Moses to the letter, but Jesus clearly ended some practices (clean and unclean foods, animal sacrifice) However, it is less clear why others (stonings, various feasts, ceremonial washings) were discontinued. Biblically, one could point to Acts, where a council decided that Gentiles would not have to be circumcized in order to be admitted to the church. Was that the beginning of the end of the ancient law? Another key passage explains that all that is done in faith is not sin, while all that is not done in faith is sin. This may be the most damning passage I know, but it would explain that when directly intune with God's spirit (as most Christians believe we should be) any behaivoir would come directly from Him, and therefore be justifiable. Of course that would only come with sincere faith, which few to none seem to have.
Of course, the other option would be that we ARE supposed to continue with the ancient law, and have been living in disobedience to this day. Perhaps God wants us to continue the stonings, and if that is His will how could it be unjust (no, I'm not being a hypocrite, I know I'd be stoned).
I keep hearing "better" reasoning, and "best" reasoning, but without the infinite reference point of God, how can reasoning be good or bad? What is the end we are trying to achieve, and more importantly why? I have heard Christians argue that those who never heard the gospel recieve automatic salvation. If that were the case, it would be a reasonable action to kill every Christian and burn every Bible, because that way NO ONE could possibly face damnation from then on. Is that good reasoning? It is completely dependant on the truth or falsity of the previous statement. Likewise with all religions (or lack there of). If the highest good is pleasure, we must come together and improve quality of life and longevity. If the highest good is wisdom, we must compile knowledge and master science in order to answer all of our questions. If the highest good is compassion then we must treat others with kindness and mercy. But if the highest good is the will of God, as claimed by most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, then we must serve Him, no matter what He commands. That is why I admire the terrorists. So few among other religious groups woud be willing to go on a mission where one's own death is not only certain, but is also part of the goal in order to serve their god.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: northtexan Reason, schmeason! Some reason themselves into belief, some out of it; most probably fall into one or the other, for whatever reason, without much reasoning. Reason leads me to say that neither theist nor atheist could have come to their positions by pure reason -- but then, neither did I come to mine in that manner.

Reason is undebatable. Reason is the truth as we know it.

[Athena]

Quote by: LetThereBe I find this to be a very interesting topic, and I have not yet recieved a satisfactory answer to that question from any Christian or any readings of my own. You make an excellent point. I still don't see why Jews don't follow the ancient laws of Moses to the letter, but Jesus clearly ended some practices (clean and unclean foods, animal sacrifice) However, it is less clear why others (stonings, various feasts, ceremonial washings) were discontinued. Biblically, one could point to Acts, where a council decided that Gentiles would not have to be circumcized in order to be admitted to the church. Was that the beginning of the end of the ancient law? Another key passage explains that all that is done in faith is not sin, while all that is not done in faith is sin. This may be the most damning passage I know, but it would explain that when directly intune with God's spirit (as most Christians believe we should be) any behaivoir would come directly from Him, and therefore be justifiable. Of course that would only come with sincere faith, which few to none seem to have. Of course, the other option would be that we ARE supposed to continue with the ancient law, and have been living in disobedience to this day. Perhaps God wants us to continue the stonings, and if that is His will how could it be unjust (no, I'm not being a hypocrite, I know I'd be stoned). I keep hearing "better" reasoning, and "best" reasoning, but without the infinite reference point of God, how can reasoning be good or bad? What is the end we are trying to achieve, and more importantly why? I have heard Christians argue that those who never heard the gospel recieve automatic salvation. If that were the case, it would be a reasonable action to kill every Christian and burn every Bible, because that way NO ONE could possibly face damnation from then on. Is that good reasoning? It is completely dependant on the truth or falsity of the previous statement. Likewise with all religions (or lack there of). If the highest good is pleasure, we must come together and improve quality of life and longevity. If the highest good is wisdom, we must compile knowledge and master science in order to answer all of our questions. If the highest good is compassion then we must treat others with kindness and mercy. But if the highest good is the will of God, as claimed by most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, then we must serve Him, no matter what He commands. That is why I admire the terrorists. So few among other religious groups woud be willing to go on a mission where one's own death is not only certain, but is also part of the goal in order to serve their god.

I love your reasoning! I think it is very illogical to believe God did not want us to have knowledge of good and evil and than devote ones life and money to being sure everyone in the world knows this knowledge. Go figure- makes no sense to be at all. What a terrible thing to do to completely innocent people on the islands and in Africa. May be because Satan is the deciever, he was able to decieve the Christians and get them all working for him, and this might be the way the anti Christ works?

[Athena]

God and laws, what makes people sinful? What should be done when it is proven a person has sinned? Do our laws and criminal system makes sense?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: Athena God and laws, what makes people sinful? What should be done when it is proven a person has sinned? Do our laws and criminal system makes sense?

I believe when a person has sinned they should face justice. Punishments should be harsh enough to discourage others from doing the same. I do not think our criminal system makes much sence.

[Jack]

God and laws, what makes people sinful? What should be done when it is proven a person has sinned?

The church alone should deal with sinners, since sin is a theological issue. The courts should only have to deal with laws that do not address religious issues. We shouldn't pass laws based on sin.

[Athena]

Quote by: LetThereBe I believe when a person has sinned they should face justice. Punishments should be harsh enough to discourage others from doing the same. I do not think our criminal system makes much sence.

Have you ever done something you regret doing? I have. It seemed like the right thing to do, until in the middle of the doing, and then things didn't feel right, and when I reflected on it, I wish I hadn't do done it. My son stuck his finger in a light socket twice, before I got I shouldn't leave a lamp in his room without a light bulb in it. I really hurt for parents who have done something that leads to the death of their child, knowing we are not born knowing it all and how easily accidents happen. Punishing a parent who has lost a child seems intolerably cruel to me, and it isn't helpful. Knowing shaking a child like rag doll will prevent a parent from doing this, without imprisoning parents who didn't know this until it was too late. Knowledge is so important, and I am not sure if punishing does much good in itself. It doesn't stop repeat offenders or imitators, or Joe down the street unaware of anything but his feeling at the moment.

Do you have something to say about knowledge and sin and the law? The law being universal law, such as shaking a baby can cause a babies death. Man made laws needing to make us aware of the universal laws, and prescribing what we do when a law is violated.

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood The church alone should deal with sinners, since sin is a theological issue. The courts should only have to deal with laws that do not address religious issues. We shouldn't pass laws based on sin.

Okay what is a sinner? Do we have any laws that are not also moral judgements?

[Jack]

Do we have any laws that are not also moral judgements?

Of course, many of them. Not all are good laws, but they're based on legal arguments, the Constitution or social interests, not biblical edicts.

[pit bull]

athena like i say whats right or wrong i cant dicide on that. only god can dicide whats right from wrong and what is for the best.( for life itself );living life must go on and on and on ect

[Athena]

Quote by: pit bull athena like i say whats right or wrong i cant dicide on that. only god can dicide whats right from wrong and what is for the best.( for life itself );living life must go on and on and on ect

Hum, do you live in a dictatorship? Or are you trying to replace Bush as our next president? As faulty as human judgement may be, it is all we have to manage our human affairs. Step up and take some responsibility, if in fact, you are living a democracy, and therefore hold the responsibility of self government. Unlike the biblical God, Athena never gave man laws, but taught them to make their own.

[Athena]

Quote by: LetThereBe I believe when a person has sinned they should face justice. Punishments should be harsh enough to discourage others from doing the same. I do not think our criminal system makes much sence.

Do you live in the East? The US is dominated by Christians and Jesus held a very different attitude about how to treat someone who has errored.

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood Of course, many of them. Not all are good laws, but they're based on legal arguments, the Constitution or social interests, not biblical edicts.

Okay, the bible is not, I repeat, is not, the only source for morality. We once educated for good moral judgement and maintained separation of church and state. This would be the Conceptual Method of education, and preparation for abtract thinking. We are in major trouble today because education for technology leaves people concrete thinkers, instead of preparing them for abstract thinking.

Democracy is based on the philosophy that humans will make good choices when they are educated to make good choices. This is not learning a set of laws arbitarily given by a God, but coming to understand cause and effect. I do not lie, steal and cheat, not because I fear a God or give a hoot about heaven, but I understand if I did those things, I would destroy trust and I don't want to ruin my relationships that way. Such immoral acts destroy more than relations, but also society as a whole and liberty.

The generation that is now in their 80 tys, may have dropped out of school in the 8th grade and gone to work. They grew up with the idea that to act immorally is ignorant. Socrates would agree with that. People make bad choices when they do not understand the consequences of their choices. And even criminals need to justify their wrongs to themselves, so in their own eyes their wrong is somehow right. If we weren't relying on the church of moral training, but returned it to public education, we would return to a more moral society.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Cultural barriers prevent me from understanding it. Do you understand what I mean by cultural barriers?

True, Cultural barriers prevent from understanding the facts, not only you but all those who are having biased mind and are missing logical reasoning. But, I found your writings very much un-biased then why should cultural bindings become real bindings for you. Frequent doubts might enter your pre-occupied mind, which you can get cleared by rational thinking. You see, though I am Hindu, I did not bring in any faith while explaining my mathematical conception of God, placing my unique view that this universe is the only god and there can not exist a separate personified God. Similar approach should help all others also, in understanding other's view. Rational reasoning is the only key to remove cultural bindings. :)

It appears to some that Hinduism is the worship of many Gods. There are equal Christian images, but our images are in the form of humans/saints/angels, so they don't looked like many different gods as do Hindu images. We have so many cultural differences to over come before we can share understanding. I hope you will stay with us.

Cultural differences has crept in due to many reasons. Apart from geographical differences, the main is the peculiar human nature. Every individual feels and thinks what he thinks and tells is not only correct but super most while; others are wrong! Bad property of human mind as explained in a private message to you, is the cause of development of different faiths and religions. Selfishness, greed, lust for fame etc are the human properties which, created the whole trouble. Have you ever thought! Why this cultural differences did not develope in other animal species? For example, dog of America does not have different culture than a dog of India.

What I want to impress upon is that the only way to remove cultural differences is to become un-biased and start rational thinking. Religious feed from one's parents can not be avoided, but then when are matured one should think rationally.

Coming to your feeling that Hindu worship many Gods. It is only apparent. In fact, Hindu religion preaches non-duality of supreme consciousness. The apparent duality of you and me is due to ignorance. This ignorance has become so suttle and imbeded into our minds that every human being thinks himself as individual. Now to make common ignorant individual aware of the secret of reality, noble ralised saints from pre-historic times, have symbolically represented various energy systems of individual body and associated systems prevailing in the universe and named them different gods to make ignorant understand. This is enough for a common man to start with. The fact is that there is not even one God, what to speak of many many Gods. The way we are having different levels of intellect, same way there exist various levels of our own self consciousness with different individuals, which with practice rise to supreme consciousness, when one's individuality gets erased or dissolved!!!! :eek:

[Athena]

Kuldeep,interesting point that dogs do not have culture in different countries. I want my mind to grip this thought and hold onto it. Then to contemplate how humans are different.

You have stressed rational thinking, and when understand democracy originate from Athens as a result of rational thinking, then we understand, democracy is very much about rational thinking. But right now I am feeling like the only one in the whole United States, who understands this, and I am not relating this concept to others. Part of the problem is, we understand too little about thinking.

What is rational thinking? I remember when the state had custody of my grandchildren, and their rational did not include good logic. For example, a decision made in September was justified by what happened the following November. November follows after September, and could not have been part of September's reasoning, but the bureaucrat was rationalizing, attempting to prove her judgement and decision right, by something that happened months later, and her superior accepted this rationalizing. I think most people would because they have no training in logic and do not know any better. Our public schools are doing a very bad job of preparing students for logical thinking. They once did much better, but this is not necessary for education for technology. Our education for technology is equal to education for dogs. Literally, we went from using the Conceptual Method which trains students to think, to the Behaviorist Method which is also used for training dogs. Hum, your idea that dogs don't have different cultures in different countries, plays nicely with our changed reality. Dogs bark and fight without reason every in the world and it is up to their masters to control them.

We now have the New World Order culture that Germany had when Hitler spoke of the New World Order. Tagore of India warned of the danger of this. "Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so are so impersonal that they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely impersonal and therefore completely effective in crushing out individual liberty and power". In the US public education has prepared people for this, and their leadership that has embraced the idea of dominating the world with economic and military power. Only their demand for superior strength and control which they have been conditioned to expect of their leaders, has come back to bite Bush, as he failed to adequately protect the people from the hurricane that hit New Orleans. Like dogs, they now seem to be turning on their master. Culturally, we no longer have the independent thinking we once had, and we lack the independent leadership we once had.

God and law, we have become so impressed by own human abilities, and the power of the organization of the New World Order bureaucracy, that we are expecting our President to be as a God.

comment?

[xyzer]

Interesting thread meandering as it does among the philosophers of blog posting!

Kuleep said it early, and I think correctly, that humankind wants to know and what it doesn't understand, or have an explanation for, is represented by an expression for the unknown...GOD !

Religion is humankinds variously defined expression and acknowledgement that there is a superpower which can explain the unknowns we encounter in our exiistance. Metaphysics!

Creationism is the biggest puzzle and Darwinism not yet a complete explanation. Thus God will still be the explanation for most people.

Religions, which follow the inevitable paths of human difference, are an explanation of the unknown joined with humankinds accumulated knowledge of the moral constraints required in an orderly society. The "thou shalt nots" are attempts to prevent societal disorder and chaos and have stood humans in good stead for thousands of years.
The laws in society are thus a result of experience and religious intepretation of what is beneficial for society. They are not really related to God as the titile of the thread suggests. They had their origin in the growth of human societies.

[deedee]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Believing in god is not reasonable. Human reason asks why believe in God? The "reasonable" answer is that humans need morals to live, to thrive, or else population dwindles. Even evolution agrees that every living thing "wants to live," and wants to be alive, or if death is inevitable, it will continue the species through reproduction. The human continues to ask, why believe in God? The "reasonable" answer is that humans need to know. Know why, know what, know who, etc. A God provides these answers, thus settling this fear of "not knowing" aside.

Believing in God is just as reasonable as not believing one.

The one who believes in God is on the same playing field as the one who has no belief in a god-type.

One cannot physically touch God right now, as the one who cannot prove that there is no God.

Fact of the matter is.......a "reasonable" person will question what life is all about and a "reasonable" person will continue to ask, "Why not believe in God?"

Many fear the consequences of doing harm to others based on religious views.....other distort the true meaning of same.

My two cents.

[Starboy]

Quote by: deedee Believing in God is just as reasonable as not believing one. The one who believes in God is on the same playing field as the one who has no belief in a god-type. One cannot physically touch God right now, as the one who cannot prove that there is no God. Fact of the matter is.......a "reasonable" person will question what life is all about and a "reasonable" person will continue to ask, "Why not believe in God?" Many fear the consequences of doing harm to others based on religious views.....other distort the true meaning of same. My two cents.

If the god believer was honest about it I would agree but for the vast majority of them they are not honest about it. You see the typical supernatualist uses a double standard to hold their belief. You will find many that will tell you that unicorns and Zeus are mythical and cite you the reasons. But for some strange reason they are not able to apply those very same standards to their own supernatural beliefs. The non-believer is simply using a common practice, and that is that one usually does not hold a belief in fantastic mumbo jumbo for which there is no evidence and that advocates encourage you to believe in just because.

Starboy

[deedee]

Quote by: Starboy If the god believer was honest about it I would agree but for the vast majority of them they are not honest about it. You see the typical supernatualist uses a double standard to hold their belief. You will find many that will tell you that unicorns and Zeus are mythical and cite you the reasons. But for some strange reason they are not able to apply those very same standards to their own supernatural beliefs. The non-believer is simply using a common practice, and that is that one usually does not hold a belief in fantastic mumbo jumbo for which there is no evidence and that advocates encourage you to believe in just because. Starboy

And on THAT note, Starboy......please prove to me that there is no god. Who made the sun, moon and the stars? Who made the universe? Prove to me how the universe and how this world formed....and perhaps I might see where you are coming from.

Even scientists do not agree on their 'theories'.

[Starboy]

Quote by: deedee And on THAT note, Starboy......please prove to me that there is no god. Who made the sun, moon and the stars? Who made the universe? Prove to me how the universe and how this world formed....and perhaps I might see where you are coming from. Even scientists do not agree on their 'theories'.

You missed my point. Please prove that there is no Zeus. People do not believe in Zeus because there is really no rational reason to believe in Zeus and yet there was a time when many did and for no better reasons than those you use to believe in god. You are able to understand that belief in Zeus is silly but because you practice a dishonest double standard in your own beliefs you are unable to apply the same standards you use for Zeus to your god.

Starboy