God and Control

[Ken Carman]

How much control do you believe God has, or uses, over daily life. Do you believe God controls everything? Do you think that means you believe in predestination? If not, please explain the contradiction.

Do you believe God is more like the deity in the song "From a Distance," one who watches and doesn't control everything?

If you are an agnostic, how has this whole argument affected your agnosticism?

If you are an Atheist then how does this argument reflect upon theists?

For those who do believe... is God a micro-manager? Is God more like a CEO who delegates duties out to angels, saints, us or whomever? Or is God simply a creator who included in that creation rules about how things operate and we take it from there?

Does God have some in and out box where he sorts prayers either into the "Yes" box, the "later" box or some celestial shredder? Or are prayers more for the person who prays than any diety that may or may not exist?

[Starboy]

God is an explanative construct that as time goes on and more is learned explains less and less.

Starboy

[Athena]

I understand God as did the philosophers of Athens. This a believe in cause and effect. For me God is like the X factor in algebra. Whatever set the universe in motion, that is God. From there it is all math. Evolution is matter of math, and this is the building and destruction of planets, as well as life forms on the planets. Once this was set in motion, it is played our mathematically.

However, this God does not control individual particles. Science can predict what particles will do, but not which particle. There remains a ramdoness. We know in general children from save and loving homes with advantages will do better then children coming of age in violent inner city slums, but there are always expections. A child from a good home may do poorly and a child from the worst circumstances may excell. We can know the cause and predict the result, but not for the individual.

Democracy seeks to know universal truth, and establish those conditions which are most likely to get the best results. For this reason, it has done more to end the evils that humanity has lived with since the beginning, than religion. However, when we insist people believe in the God of Abraham, or claim they do not know the true God, and when we study only the bible and trust in a God, instead of understanding of importance of learning and thinking and acting for the good of all, we realize Satan on earth. Not because their is a Satan power controlling what happens on earth, but because humans are not doing what they need to do for the best results.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Starboy God is an explanative construct that as time goes on and more is learned explains less and less. Starboy

Kind of like how those who have studied philosophy tend to dissect a concept to a point where meaning disappears?

[Athena]

Quote by: Ken Carman Kind of like how those who have studied philosophy tend to disect a concept to a point where meaning disappears?

My experience of philosophy, or at least my understanding of democracy which comes through philosophy, is far from meaningless to me. I think democracy is the way God works through humans. I wake each morning enthused by the good I might do each day.
Now people can take what I have to offer and make something ugly out of it, or make something beautiful out of it, just as we all do with God us given us. Reality is not exactly what is before us, but is also what we do with it. Each one of us has the ability to detroy and make things ugly or to create and make things beautiful. How much more could anyone ask for?

I guess what philosophy is, is what you make of it. However, it is my experience that those who shoot down intellectuals (as communism and sometimes Christian have done) are the ignorant, those who shoot down philosophy do not study it. Sometimes we just destroy without knowing that which we detroy. But surely philosophy is not the path to meaninglessness, unless that is what you make it.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Ken Carman Kind of like how those who have studied philosophy tend to dissect a concept to a point where meaning disappears?

No. We find better explanations. In philosophy there is no way to prefer one philosophy over another. So it is accretive. It continues on with all the old crap and just layers new crap on top of that. So even today, philosophy is engaged in the same pointless discussions regarding Plato and Aristotle as if we have learned nothing since then.

Starboy

[Ken Carman]

Interesting add to the discussion... especially for Atheists and Agnostics. Is God but a figment in the minds of those who want control? Control society, individuals... etc. It always amazes me that some of the most controlling people in history may have started through prayers, incantations, wizardry, magic... etc. ...to attempt controlling people, but the most successful ones, perhaps even the most successful ones have perfected the art of theistic BS. What else explains people who will willingly be led into drinking Kool-Aid, following a comet or torching themselves?

Is this just a side issue? Or, is how much the concept of God being used to control others crucial to understanding how much control any God may have, or actually use?

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Athena My experience of philosophy, or at least my understanding of democracy which comes through philosophy, is far from meaningless to me. I think democracy is the way God works through humans. I wake each morning enthused by the good I might do each day. Now people can take what I have to offer and make something ugly out of it, or make something beautiful out of it, just as we all do with God us given us. Reality is not exactly what is before us, but is also what we do with it. Each one of us has the ability to detroy and make things ugly or to create and make things beautiful. How much more could anyone ask for? I guess what philosophy is, is what you make of it. However, it is my experience that those who shoot down intellectuals (as communism and sometimes Christian have done) are the ignorant, those who shoot down philosophy do not study it. Sometimes we just destroy without knowing that which we detroy. But surely philosophy is not the path to meaninglessness, unless that is what you make it.

It sounds like from your previous post we are similar in our beliefs, though not the same.

As far as philosophy goes don't get me wrong. I enjoy a good discussion and intellectuals. When I was in college I would go to a spot called The Wild Oat where Philosophy majors, English majors and intellectuals of all types hung out. I loved it and treasured each discussion, however much of it I remembered in the morning :) . But there were a few philosophy majors, usually those on their way to a PHD, that at some point I felt their arguments were folding back on themselves, became circular and were filled with intellectual gobbledegook. But then again, I was but a poor English Education major who turned into a B.A. Communications major. Maybe I just couldn't reach that "level," though to this day I still think they were so deep into the study of philosophy, rather than speculating and postulating possibilities, that they didn't even know they needed hip boots.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Athena I understand God as did the philosophers of Athens. This a believe in cause and effect. For me God is like the X factor in algebra. Whatever set the universe in motion, that is God. From there it is all math. Evolution is matter of math, and this is the building and destruction of planets, as well as life forms on the planets. Once this was set in motion, it is played our mathematically. However, this God does not control individual particles. Science can predict what particles will do, but not which particle. There remains a ramdoness. We know in general children from save and loving homes with advantages will do better then children coming of age in violent inner city slums, but there are always expections. A child from a good home may do poorly and a child from the worst circumstances may excell. We can know the cause and predict the result, but not for the individual. Democracy seeks to know universal truth, and establish those conditions which are most likely to get the best results. For this reason, it has done more to end the evils that humanity has lived with since the beginning, than religion. However, when we insist people believe in the God of Abraham, or claim they do not know the true God, and when we study only the bible and trust in a God, instead of understanding of importance of learning and thinking and acting for the good of all, we realize Satan on earth. Not because their is a Satan power controlling what happens on earth, but because humans are not doing what they need to do for the best results.

I consider no believer in God to be a true philosopher. You can have your philosophies on government, or on capitalism, however, in the search for truth through reason, God doesn't exist. Period. Reason says so, and reason dictates philosophy.

[Critter]

Quote by: Ken Carman How much control do you believe God has, or uses, over daily life. Do you believe God controls everything? Do you think that means you believe in predestination? If not, please explain the contradiction. Do you believe God is more like the deity in the song "From a Distance," one who watches and doesn't control everything? If you are an agnostic, how has this whole argument affected your agnosticism? If you are an Atheist then how does this argument reflect upon theists? For those who do believe... is God a micro-manager? Is God more like a CEO who delegates duties out to angels, saints, us or whomever? Or is God simply a creator who included in that creation rules about how things operate and we take it from there? Does God have some in and out box where he sorts prayers either into the "Yes" box, the "later" box or some celestial shredder? Or are prayers more for the person who prays than any diety that may or may not exist?

These are questions we will never know until our time comes.

The only answer I have is that God gave us this little thing called free will. Could you imagine, being about to do something morally wrong, and have this voice boom, "No no no, that's not right!" and all of a sudden being picked up by the back of your shirt and scolded?

My take is, God CAN do anything He wants, but has his reasons for what he does.

I think once we do die everything will suddenly become clear,. and we'll realize, "Ohhh, so THAT'S what this is about!"

[Osborn F Enready]

I personally feel that religion was born of man, to control other men. I am not saying all entailed in religion is wrong, or fictional. I am saying it is in my opinion, not represented in a fashion that belies its true intentions.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I personally feel that religion was born of man, to control other men. I am not saying all entailed in religion is wrong, or fictional. I am saying it is in my opinion, not represented in a fashion that belies its true intentions.

My philosophical reasons agree with you. So far it's worked.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Critter These are questions we will never know until our time comes. The only answer I have is that God gave us this little thing called free will. Could you imagine, being about to do something morally wrong, and have this voice boom, "No no no, that's not right!" and all of a sudden being picked up by the back of your shirt and scolded? My take is, God CAN do anything He wants, but has his reasons for what he does. ]I think once we do die everything will suddenly become clear,. and we'll realize, "Ohhh, so THAT'S what this is about!"

In the South we have quite few churches called "Free Will Baptist." A member explained the faith to me as "God controls everything. We believe in predestination." I did point out that the title was a little contradictory and she explained it as "being free to bend to God's will." As long as "God's will" actually is always good and always understood, I suppose there's no harm. Personally speaking I still have my doubts about though and view the concept as worshiping a puppeteer God, and we're little more than puppets.

We may find out when we die, but I imagine, with a smile, God will quote T. S. Elliot's Prufrock...

"That is not what I meant, not what I meant at all."

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I personally feel that religion was born of man, to control other men. I am not saying all entailed in religion is wrong, or fictional. I am saying it is in my opinion, not represented in a fashion that belies its true intentions.

Wouldn't it be ironic if when we died we found out God is a party animal that forgot about imagining us into existence? God wakes up and says. "Oh, damn, what did I do last night?"

Of course, when we die, we may find out that it's all myth. Wait, no we won't! That means no matter what's true, theists get the last laugh? No, not that either. No one laughs. How sad. I'd at least love to meet you all for a chuckle or two about how wrong all of us were.

I do believe a lot of religion was born of man for the reason you mentioned. The theist part of me views this in a Joseph Campbell sort of way. We are all attempting to describe the elephant in the room. Blind we all may be. OK, enough Yoda speak! :)

[Critter]

Quote by: Ken Carman In the South we have quite few churches called "Free Will Baptist." A member explained the faith to me as "God controls everything. We believe in predestination." I did point out that the title was a little contradictory and she explained it as "being free to bend to God's will." As long as "God's will" actually is always good and always understood, I suppose there's no harm.

Well, I believe in God, though I can't say I believe in religion itself per se. I don't feel the need to go to church just to say, "Hey, look at me, I'm a good churchgoing citizen, I believe in God, look at all the good things I do!" I prefer to just live my life the best I can, give an occasional thanks to God when something good comes my way, and ask him for help when it doesn't.

Skip the middleman and go right to the source, I guess you could say.

I can say with absolute certainty that I believe in some sort of higher benevolent supernatural power, and though I haven't had any major revelations happen to me, there have been a few small things here and there which lead me to believe there's SOMEONE up there looking out for me.

[ghost_stalker]

You are all forgetting one very important detail THERE IS NO GOD!!!

You will see how stupid you sound if you delete the word 'god' from every post in this topic.


I win yet again

[Jack]

As long as "God's will" actually is always good and always understood

That's the part of predestination that eludes me. How does god indicate his will to someone so that they may follow it? Is whatever happens god's will because...well...it's what happened, so god must have willed it? Or does god actually whisper in their ear, "Turn right at the next corner, not left like you were going to do"?

[Athena]

Quote by: Ken Carman In the South we have quite few churches called "Free Will Baptist." A member explained the faith to me as "God controls everything. We believe in predestination." I did point out that the title was a little contradictory and she explained it as "being free to bend to God's will." As long as "God's will" actually is always good and always understood, I suppose there's no harm. Personally speaking I still have my doubts about though and view the concept as worshiping a puppeteer God, and we're little more than puppets. We may find out when we die, but I imagine, with a smile, God will quote T. S. Elliot's Prufrock...

Sounds Hegelian to me. Only for Hegel the state was God, and free will was submitting to the state. This was not exactly a choice.

[Athena]

Quote by: ghost_stalker You are all forgetting one very important detail THERE IS NO GOD!!! You will see how stupid you sound if you delete the word 'god' from every post in this topic. I win yet again

You sound like my 16 year old grandson. That is not a good thing.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Athena Sounds Hegelian to me. Only for Hegel the state was God, and free will was submitting to the state. This was not exactly a choice.

I have argued with "Christians" who claim the bible says just this, we are owned by the state and the state is God's representative. In fact in an earlier post, either here or under "Satan and Control," I mentioned a father and son team I used to live with. That observation was the result of an argument I had with the father, a minister. I have heard others claim the same. I have no desire to live in any such culture. I also find the more theistic a state becomes often the more evil they pursue, not that cultures that claim to be atheistic have done much better, that's for sure. What's left? Freedom of belief. ALL belief: mine, yours, the neighbor down the street. Of course freedom of belief doesn't mean freedom to do anything any belief might tell you to do. And it also means making sure one sect doesn't try to oppress another. That's hard.