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Packratt · Feb 25, 2004, 10:52 pm

Yes, it's yet another difficult to place subject, at least in my own opinion, so appologies before hand if you feel it belongs elsewhere.

What keeps you from murdering someone?

Do the laws and methods of punitive recompense of the land in which you live affect your choice not to commit a crime like murder?

Does your religion and a fear of supernatural consequence keep you from committing such an offence?

Perhaps your own morals and sense of compassion prevent you from committing the ultimate imposition on another human?

Perhaps there is some combination of these that prevents you personally from killing another human aside from the consideration of the 'just cause' (defense of self or others)?

Maybe it's an intellectuall acknowledgement of the prime moral law, that one treat's others as one wishes to be treated because such quid pro quo increases the odds that you will not become the victim of the same crime you would inflict upon another, (nullification of the social compact)?

I think this is a question that gets to the heart of quite a few discussions here concerning the nature of government and crime. There is a reason I do not simply delve into the question of why we do not commit crimes against the laws of any nation. To make this a valid question it has to be a universally human "crime" that transcends human laws.

Is it the hangman which scares us into respect? Is it our fellow man? Is it the respect of ourselves? Or is it something else that maintains the ability to be a functional society?

I would offer the opinion that it is something innate within most people that prevents us from doing things that are blatantly sociopathic except when external events put us in unnatural situations or states of mentality (poor upbringing, etc). I suggest this because I personally am not capable of harming others except in situations where I am defending myself or others, something within me prevents my acting in this way despite external threats of harm.

However, there are many examples that blow my opinion out of the water entirely. Haiti for example, where people are killing each other without the hangman there to threaten them into line. Nazi Germany is another example of a majority of citzens rallying to an immoral call, the call of murder and genocide. Certainly such things only find flaws in my reasoning, yes? Or perhaps these situations are due to extreme situations imposed upon the people acting immorally which induces them to such acts?

What prevents you from murdering others, what makes you moral and ethical, if anything does? And what does that speak of humanity's chances for survival or our chances for ever freeing ourselves from hiearchical systems of control and coercion?

RebelWithanAK · Feb 25, 2004, 10:56 pm

There is a saying that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich. There's another that says that the police are the army of the rich.

Myself, I believe the only reason certain people are still alive is because I'd get caught. As it is, my countrymen seem to be obsessed with such short-term successes - at the cost of long-term disaster - that my reason would probably be a bit more widely believed than would be pleasant. All the more reason I think all guns should be locked up or destroyed.

Packratt · Feb 25, 2004, 11:03 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
There is a saying that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich. There's another that says that the police are the army of the rich.

Myself, I believe the only reason certain people are still alive is because I'd get caught.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, it's another interesting argument, one which may follow later, that might suggest that the poor rising against the rich in a murderous coup might actually be an act of defense by an oppressed group against it's oppressors. Surely, a certain french woman of history who speaks of cakes and the dietary needs of the impoverished provides us an example of this, even though, perhaps, the murderous rage went too far in the end.

But that is another discussion for another time maybe, whether the starving poor have just cause to revolt against the wealthy when they are denied a livelyhood.

So for you is it the threat of a hangman's noose or internment to a prison which enforces moral behavior on your behalf in cases other than class struggle?

RebelWithanAK · Feb 25, 2004, 11:10 pm

Oh, absolutely. I don't trust the laws, which were written as if to be purposefully obtuse, and I don't trust the lawyers...

--tangent--
...who would seem to me to be the most powerful lobby in government now. After all, look how many lawyers are in office...
--tangent--

...and I don't trust that the long dormant capital punishment laws in New York will stay as much. What I do trust is that the police will find me right quick, because those I would potentially have in my sights would definitely have means about them. It is a class struggle, but some times it's best not to stick your head above the crowd.

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 25, 2004, 11:12 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
There is a saying that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

pfft.... the rich can simply hire half of the poor to kill the other half.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 25, 2004, 11:16 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tman_ndsu08,)
pfft.... the rich can simply hire half of the poor to kill the other half.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Then who would do their work for them?

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 25, 2004, 11:23 pm

the people who sell them their services...

RebelWithanAK · Feb 25, 2004, 11:26 pm

...and who would that be, if not the poor?

But we're getting off-topic. What's stoppin' you from killin'?

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 25, 2004, 11:34 pm

people who sell their services to companies are workers...they can be poor, middle, rich...whatever.

as far as killing...i'd say it's an emotional thing.

3 main emotions (love anger fear)

you could kill for any of those 3.

if you love someone enough and they ask you to kill someone and you do...you killed for love

if you get so angry at someone that you kill them...you killed out of anger

if you kill someone because they are going to kill you...you killed out of fear

there is one other way to kill someone...accidentally. sometimes you do something that had an unintended effect

i've never killed anyone and i don't plan on it...but i'm sure we are all capable of killing for any of those 4 reasons (esp the last one).

Sasha · Feb 26, 2004, 12:09 am

I don't kill because I would lose the respect of those around me, ie my parents and friends. moreover, they would condem me, as a social creature I need some respect from those around me.

libertyminded · Feb 26, 2004, 12:56 am

I love that "the police are the army of the rich" statement.

I was pulled over for going 7 mph over the limit and my licence was suspened so my car got towed and I had to pay $2500 to get it (and my livelihood) back. My licence had been suspended for small infractions like speeding, where I could neither pay the fine nor mitigate the my infractions because I was homeless and unemployed because my parents had abandoned me in my last years of high school. At this time it really seemed to me like there was "truth and justice for all who can afford it" becuase if I were even slightly more wealthy I could have payed the fines and never had to worry about this sort of thing.

This seemed horribly unjust to me and and at the time I was furious, and thinking about going on a killing spree against the state police where I live.

In the end I was more concerened with living a comfortable and stable western life so I put off my guerilla aspirations until a time when I could either start or join a more meaningfull resistance against the powers that be.

I bring all this up because it was the only time in my life where I truely considered killing another human being.

This made me question the circumstances under which destroying another person's existance was acceptable. I realized then that we all have the capacity for taking anothers life within us. It all just depends on what idea or beliefe you deem important enough to kill and die for.

Millions have killed others in wars they believed were just, in the name of some all powerfull ideal or cause.

Who's to say which ideals were/are "right" or "wrong"?

IMHO, the rightful destruction of another's existance is all relative to one's disposition.

So I think this question really comes down to "what is a valid reason to end someone's existance?"

The answer to that question is nothing more then personal conjecture.

How many of us give cheers to the woman that slays her abusive huband, or how many of us aplaude the soldiers that destroy the wards of an oppressive dictator?

We all think killing others is right in some instances and wrong in others, so for me there is no "right" answer to why we don't just kill anyone that gets in our way.

I don't like the idea of killing others to reach my personal goals, (and this is comming from a guy with aspirations of ruling the world) but I can certainly see many people the world could do without.

Maybe "might makes right" really does have some truth to it.

marco_funk · Feb 26, 2004, 01:58 am

I don't kill people because Jesus is my Lord

laserkid · Feb 26, 2004, 02:42 am

I don't kill people because well...I think Vash the Stampeded (woo Trigun refrence)says it best. If I killed someone, it would make someone ELSE sad, what right do I have to do that to someone else? They're someones son, someones daughter, someones brother, sister, best friend, ect. Who am I to take them away from those who love them?

antayla · Feb 26, 2004, 03:10 am

I don't kill people because it would hurt me in the end more than it would hurt them

Not because of the law, but simply because resorting to violence solves nothing. Who is to say that I am worth more than them?

Geoff332 · Feb 26, 2004, 05:56 am

What I find most interesting is the contrast between the subject of this thread and the issues raised.

'Murder' is not the same as killing. Any act that takes the life of another is an act of killing. Murder implies some form of judgement on that act as being 'wrong', from either a moral, institutional or legal perspective. I am fairly certain that not everyone here will agree on exactly where that line should be drawn.

Is execution of convicted criminals murder? Is killing in war murder? Is killing in self-defence murder? Is killing for revenge murder? Is euthanasia murder? Is killing over money murder? Is killing to keep a secret (state or otherwise) murder? Is abortion murder? Is slaughtering cattle for a nice juicy steak murder? Is shooting an injured horse muder? These are all different lines that are drawn by different people at different times.

For myself, I would have to say that I don't kill because of my personal moral and aesthetic beliefs. At the sime time, I realise that different people have different reasons for not killing.

Perhaps it might be interesting to put the question another way: who would like to live in a state where there was no formal prohibition against murder?

castille · Feb 26, 2004, 08:40 am

During the French Revolution, the poor killed the rich.

Then the poor became the oppressors, and brutally slaughtered African and Asian natives in French colonies.

In Russia, the poor rose against the rich and killed them.

Then the poor became the leaders of the Soviet Union, killed 10 million people, and began a 50-year regime of terror. Soviet Imperialism began in Mongolia, but spread to Eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa.

When you put the poor in power, they're just as cruel as the rich.

syracusa · Feb 26, 2004, 11:22 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (marco_funk,)
I don't kill people because Jesus is my Lord<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ditto.

**Sean** · Feb 26, 2004, 11:24 am

that's a terrible generalization...sorry

Jumping to that conclusion from one example is pretty fallacious.

sdcinder · Feb 26, 2004, 01:24 pm

For the exact same reason that Jesus did not kill all those people that opposed Him, out of love for my fellow man. Just because I love you does not mean I have to put up with (generalization here) your crap, your attitude, or your views about me. I am to love you when you are unloveable because it is the right, albeit uncomfortable sometimes, thing to do. Jesus loved those that put Him on that cross to suffer. He loved those that oppressed, tortured, and persecuted Him. How can I do any different, if I believe that He was the Son of God, than what He did and endure any less than He did? I shouldn't and I dang sure shouldn't complain about it.

This doesn't mean that I believe that criminals should go free. But I do believe that if we all had the same belief, we wouldn't need all the BS laws that we have because we would naturally NOT kill, NOT covet our neighbor's stuff, and NOT oppress anyone for the sake of "getting ahead." The thing with many of the laws and the criminals is the fact that in order to judge them and make a rational judgement, we must all be on the same page as far as what is expected and what the punishment is which is sort of what the gov't with all its laws is trying to do. Put us all on the same playing field even though we are not.

Just because I am commanded to love you doesn't mean I have to like you or agree with your actions. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

laserkid · Feb 26, 2004, 03:39 pm

He gave more than one example - but there isnt exactly ample proof of his assertion in that regard however to back him up just a bit here.

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I think thats what hes getting at.

Feb 25, 2004, 10:52 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	Yes, it's yet another difficult to place subject, at least in my own opinion, so appologies before hand if you feel it belongs elsewhere. What keeps you from murdering someone? Do the laws and methods of punitive recompense of the land in which you live affect your choice not to commit a crime like murder? Does your religion and a fear of supernatural consequence keep you from committing such an offence? Perhaps your own morals and sense of compassion prevent you from committing the ultimate imposition on another human? Perhaps there is some combination of these that prevents you personally from killing another human aside from the consideration of the 'just cause' (defense of self or others)? Maybe it's an intellectuall acknowledgement of the prime moral law, that one treat's others as one wishes to be treated because such quid pro quo increases the odds that you will not become the victim of the same crime you would inflict upon another, (nullification of the social compact)? I think this is a question that gets to the heart of quite a few discussions here concerning the nature of government and crime. There is a reason I do not simply delve into the question of why we do not commit crimes against the laws of any nation. To make this a valid question it has to be a universally human "crime" that transcends human laws. Is it the hangman which scares us into respect? Is it our fellow man? Is it the respect of ourselves? Or is it something else that maintains the ability to be a functional society? I would offer the opinion that it is something innate within most people that prevents us from doing things that are blatantly sociopathic except when external events put us in unnatural situations or states of mentality (poor upbringing, etc). I suggest this because I personally am not capable of harming others except in situations where I am defending myself or others, something within me prevents my acting in this way despite external threats of harm. However, there are many examples that blow my opinion out of the water entirely. Haiti for example, where people are killing each other without the hangman there to threaten them into line. Nazi Germany is another example of a majority of citzens rallying to an immoral call, the call of murder and genocide. Certainly such things only find flaws in my reasoning, yes? Or perhaps these situations are due to extreme situations imposed upon the people acting immorally which induces them to such acts? What prevents you from murdering others, what makes you moral and ethical, if anything does? And what does that speak of humanity's chances for survival or our chances for ever freeing ourselves from hiearchical systems of control and coercion? "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 25, 2004, 10:56 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	There is a saying that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich. There's another that says that the police are the army of the rich. Myself, I believe the only reason certain people are still alive is because I'd get caught. As it is, my countrymen seem to be obsessed with such short-term successes - at the cost of long-term disaster - that my reason would probably be a bit more widely believed than would be pleasant. All the more reason I think all guns should be locked up or destroyed. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:03 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) There is a saying that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich. There's another that says that the police are the army of the rich. Myself, I believe the only reason certain people are still alive is because I'd get caught.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, it's another interesting argument, one which may follow later, that might suggest that the poor rising against the rich in a murderous coup might actually be an act of defense by an oppressed group against it's oppressors. Surely, a certain french woman of history who speaks of cakes and the dietary needs of the impoverished provides us an example of this, even though, perhaps, the murderous rage went too far in the end. But that is another discussion for another time maybe, whether the starving poor have just cause to revolt against the wealthy when they are denied a livelyhood. So for you is it the threat of a hangman's noose or internment to a prison which enforces moral behavior on your behalf in cases other than class struggle? "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 25, 2004, 11:10 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Oh, absolutely. I don't trust the laws, which were written as if to be purposefully obtuse, and I don't trust the lawyers... --tangent-- ...who would seem to me to be the most powerful lobby in government now. After all, look how many lawyers are in office... --tangent-- ...and I don't trust that the long dormant capital punishment laws in New York will stay as much. What I do trust is that the police will find me right quick, because those I would potentially have in my sights would definitely have means about them. It is a class struggle, but some times it's best not to stick your head above the crowd. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:12 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) There is a saying that religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> pfft.... the rich can simply hire half of the poor to kill the other half.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:16 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tman_ndsu08,) pfft.... the rich can simply hire half of the poor to kill the other half.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Then who would do their work for them? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:23 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	the people who sell them their services...

Feb 25, 2004, 11:26 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	...and who would that be, if not the poor? But we're getting off-topic. What's stoppin' you from killin'? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:34 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	people who sell their services to companies are workers...they can be poor, middle, rich...whatever. as far as killing...i'd say it's an emotional thing. 3 main emotions (love anger fear) you could kill for any of those 3. if you love someone enough and they ask you to kill someone and you do...you killed for love if you get so angry at someone that you kill them...you killed out of anger if you kill someone because they are going to kill you...you killed out of fear there is one other way to kill someone...accidentally. sometimes you do something that had an unintended effect i've never killed anyone and i don't plan on it...but i'm sure we are all capable of killing for any of those 4 reasons (esp the last one).

Feb 26, 2004, 12:09 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Sasha Molten Ash Posts: 47	I don't kill because I would lose the respect of those around me, ie my parents and friends. moreover, they would condem me, as a social creature I need some respect from those around me.

Feb 26, 2004, 12:56 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
libertyminded Molten Ash Location: Seattle, Washington USA Posts: 69	I love that "the police are the army of the rich" statement. I was pulled over for going 7 mph over the limit and my licence was suspened so my car got towed and I had to pay $2500 to get it (and my livelihood) back. My licence had been suspended for small infractions like speeding, where I could neither pay the fine nor mitigate the my infractions because I was homeless and unemployed because my parents had abandoned me in my last years of high school. At this time it really seemed to me like there was "truth and justice for all who can afford it" becuase if I were even slightly more wealthy I could have payed the fines and never had to worry about this sort of thing. This seemed horribly unjust to me and and at the time I was furious, and thinking about going on a killing spree against the state police where I live. In the end I was more concerened with living a comfortable and stable western life so I put off my guerilla aspirations until a time when I could either start or join a more meaningfull resistance against the powers that be. I bring all this up because it was the only time in my life where I truely considered killing another human being. This made me question the circumstances under which destroying another person's existance was acceptable. I realized then that we all have the capacity for taking anothers life within us. It all just depends on what idea or beliefe you deem important enough to kill and die for. Millions have killed others in wars they believed were just, in the name of some all powerfull ideal or cause. Who's to say which ideals were/are "right" or "wrong"? IMHO, the rightful destruction of another's existance is all relative to one's disposition. So I think this question really comes down to "what is a valid reason to end someone's existance?" The answer to that question is nothing more then personal conjecture. How many of us give cheers to the woman that slays her abusive huband, or how many of us aplaude the soldiers that destroy the wards of an oppressive dictator? We all think killing others is right in some instances and wrong in others, so for me there is no "right" answer to why we don't just kill anyone that gets in our way. I don't like the idea of killing others to reach my personal goals, (and this is comming from a guy with aspirations of ruling the world) but I can certainly see many people the world could do without. Maybe "might makes right" really does have some truth to it. "Any man willing to trade freedom for security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin

Feb 26, 2004, 01:58 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
marco_funk Molten Ash Posts: 28	I don't kill people because Jesus is my Lord

Feb 26, 2004, 02:42 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	I don't kill people because well...I think Vash the Stampeded (woo Trigun refrence)says it best. If I killed someone, it would make someone ELSE sad, what right do I have to do that to someone else? They're someones son, someones daughter, someones brother, sister, best friend, ect. Who am I to take them away from those who love them? "That is a Secret." -Xellos

Feb 26, 2004, 03:10 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
antayla Molten Ash Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 56	I don't kill people because it would hurt me in the end more than it would hurt them Not because of the law, but simply because resorting to violence solves nothing. Who is to say that I am worth more than them? Member of the Free State Project. http://www.freestateproject.com

Feb 26, 2004, 05:56 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	What I find most interesting is the contrast between the subject of this thread and the issues raised. 'Murder' is not the same as killing. Any act that takes the life of another is an act of killing. Murder implies some form of judgement on that act as being 'wrong', from either a moral, institutional or legal perspective. I am fairly certain that not everyone here will agree on exactly where that line should be drawn. Is execution of convicted criminals murder? Is killing in war murder? Is killing in self-defence murder? Is killing for revenge murder? Is euthanasia murder? Is killing over money murder? Is killing to keep a secret (state or otherwise) murder? Is abortion murder? Is slaughtering cattle for a nice juicy steak murder? Is shooting an injured horse muder? These are all different lines that are drawn by different people at different times. For myself, I would have to say that I don't kill because of my personal moral and aesthetic beliefs. At the sime time, I realise that different people have different reasons for not killing. Perhaps it might be interesting to put the question another way: who would like to live in a state where there was no formal prohibition against murder?

Feb 26, 2004, 08:40 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	During the French Revolution, the poor killed the rich. Then the poor became the oppressors, and brutally slaughtered African and Asian natives in French colonies. In Russia, the poor rose against the rich and killed them. Then the poor became the leaders of the Soviet Union, killed 10 million people, and began a 50-year regime of terror. Soviet Imperialism began in Mongolia, but spread to Eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa. When you put the poor in power, they're just as cruel as the rich. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 26, 2004, 11:22 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
syracusa Igneous Magma Posts: 623	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (marco_funk,) I don't kill people because Jesus is my Lord<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ditto. COMPETITION BRINGS THE BEST IN PRODUCTS AND THE WORST IN RELATIONSHIPS.

Feb 26, 2004, 11:24 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	that's a terrible generalization...sorry Jumping to that conclusion from one example is pretty fallacious. So it goes

Feb 26, 2004, 01:24 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
sdcinder Molten Ash Location: South Dakota Posts: 26	For the exact same reason that Jesus did not kill all those people that opposed Him, out of love for my fellow man. Just because I love you does not mean I have to put up with (generalization here) your crap, your attitude, or your views about me. I am to love you when you are unloveable because it is the right, albeit uncomfortable sometimes, thing to do. Jesus loved those that put Him on that cross to suffer. He loved those that oppressed, tortured, and persecuted Him. How can I do any different, if I believe that He was the Son of God, than what He did and endure any less than He did? I shouldn't and I dang sure shouldn't complain about it. This doesn't mean that I believe that criminals should go free. But I do believe that if we all had the same belief, we wouldn't need all the BS laws that we have because we would naturally NOT kill, NOT covet our neighbor's stuff, and NOT oppress anyone for the sake of "getting ahead." The thing with many of the laws and the criminals is the fact that in order to judge them and make a rational judgement, we must all be on the same page as far as what is expected and what the punishment is which is sort of what the gov't with all its laws is trying to do. Put us all on the same playing field even though we are not. Just because I am commanded to love you doesn't mean I have to like you or agree with your actions. Love the sinner, hate the sin. C. Bogue "There's room for all God's creatures, right next to the fried taters!"

Feb 26, 2004, 03:39 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
laserkid Molten Ash Location: Sore Wa Himitsu Desu Posts: 80	He gave more than one example - but there isnt exactly ample proof of his assertion in that regard however to back him up just a bit here. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." I think thats what hes getting at. "That is a Secret." -Xellos