Ask A Mormon (LDS)

[Flip Jackson]

Isherwood, I don't know how well you know the Book of Mormon, but here goes.

Mormon and Moroni were the last two prophets of the Nephite civilization before it was destroyed. Mormon collected all the records of his ancestors and compiled the Book of Mormon, which is a summary of the birth and death of the Nephite civilization. That is why it is called the Book of Mormon, he made it from past records.

Moroni is Mormon's son. He lived to see the Nephite extinction, and wrote the last bit of the Book of Mormon. He is also the angel that appeared to Joseph Smith a few times and told him many things, including about the gold plates that the Nephite records were on.

Lilith, I like your new avatar. The quote is neat, too, but I don't know if that is new.

[Lilith]

No, the quote is the old one, haven't found another yet that takes my fancy. Thanks, on the avi, I found a site with all kinds of goodies.

[IGX]

Why do Mormons attempt to recruit children into their irrational cult?

Why do Mormons revere Joseph Smith and Brigham Young as prophets when they are known to have perpetrated rape, murder, and castration on their members and others?

Do Mormons still believe in or practice "blood atonement" as it was preached and practiced by their felonious prophet, Brigham Young?

Why do Mormons take their irrational beliefs to the street, canvassing neighborhoods, door to door, with prayer books in hand?

Do Mormons still forcefully betroth young girls to old decrepit male members of their cult?

Is the current punishment for adultery still death by slitting the offenders throat?

[Mia]

Quote by: IGX Why do Mormons attempt to recruit children into their irrational cult? Why do Mormons revere Joseph Smith and Brigham Young as prophets when they are known to have perpetrated rape, murder, and castration on their members and others? Do Mormons still believe in or practice "blood atonement" as it was preached and practiced by their felonious prophet, Brigham Young? Why do Mormons take their irrational beliefs to the street, canvassing neighborhoods, door to door, with prayer books in hand? Do Mormons still forcefully betroth young girls to old decrepit male members of their cult? Is the current punishment for adultery still death by slitting the offenders throat?

WOAH - chill. That is FAR from the mainstream you're talking about. The witnesses who 'canvas the streets' are very polite, they do not push themselves on anyone. Christians are supposed to witness to, at least LDS actualy does it.

Please give some figures on how often Mormon girls are forced into marriage? That does occur, in the cult-like Mormon sects, but again, that is not the mainstream.

I am no fan of the con artist Joseph Smith, but if you are going to make the allegations that you did against him, you need back-up.

Please also source the throat-slitting for adultary, and show how this is a common practice as you inferred.

Every religion has it's sects that are cult-like and do funky things. You can't accuse the whole religion of that stuff, though.

[Flip Jackson]

IGX, I refuse to even try to answer any of your questions. You obviously have no desire for my answer, but you are just trying to ridicule.

Much of your questions are rumors, blown out of proportion, and the like. Some of it I haven't even heard of before. You have a huge bias here, so I will leave you to your spite.

[IGX]

Quote by: Flip Jackson IGX, I refuse to even try to answer any of your questions. You obviously have no desire for my answer, but you are just trying to ridicule.

I'm merely asking if Mormons still tollerate the bloody atrocities perpetrated by their previous leaders. I know its easy to become a follower today but I can't understand how anyone can respect or follower blood thirsty crimminals like Young and Smith.

Much of your questions are rumors, blown out of proportion, and the like.

There's plenty of evidence to back up those facts. Some proof even exists in Mormon achive records. Look it up.

Some of it I haven't even heard of before.

It should behoove any member of a reigion to know its history and the characters of those called "prophets", lest you fall prey to the current con-artist charlatan leadership.

[IGX]

That the Mormon church had a bloody criminal past is no secret.

There is evidence, in the form of a confession written on lead by John D Lee, who was Brigham Young's adopted son. Here's an excerpt from an article appearing on a religious web site:

"A CONFESSION etched on a newly discovered lead sheet has shaken the Mormon Church by linking its revered leader, Brigham Young, with one of the worst massacres in American history.

The note claims that the founder of Salt Lake City (Brigham Young) ordered the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre, when a wagon train of 120 settlers, mostly women and children, were killed after they had thrown down their weapons on a promise of safe passage."

Read the article here: http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/mormon.php

Young's great-great granddaughter did extensive research on BY, his preachings and practice of "blood atonement".

Brigham Young spoke many times in his sermons of his perverted belief in "blood atonement"

Here's one: "There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.
"I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them...."

Read the article by By Jerald & Sandra Tanner which originally appeared in The Salt Lake City Messenger, Issue No. 92, April, 1997 here:
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

Here's another excerpt from Jerald & Sandra Tanner's article http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

John D. Lee (BY's adopted son) made this startling statement:

"I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo... and I know of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his Apostles while the Church was there." (Ibid., page 284) Lee also revealed another very cruel practice which took place both in Nauvoo, Illinois, and in early Utah:

"In Utah it has been the custom with the Priesthood to make eunuchs of such men as were obnoxious to the leaders. This was done for a double purpose: first, it gave a perfect revenge, and next, it left the poor victim a living example to others of the dangers of disobeying counsel and not living as ordered by the Priesthood.

"In Nauvoo it was the orders from Joseph Smith and his apostles to beat, wound and castrate all Gentiles that the police could take in the act of entering or leaving a Mormon household under circumstances that led to the belief that they had been there for immoral purposes.... In Utah it was the favorite revenge of old, worn-out members of the Priesthood, who wanted young women sealed to them, and found that the girl preferred some handsome young man. The old priests generally got the girls, and many a young man was unsexed for refusing to give up his sweetheart at the request of an old and failing, but still sensual apostle or member of the Priesthood....."

Here's a link regarding more recent child abuse in the Mormon church:

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/nov96_2.htm

[Mia]

Quote by: IGX I'm merely asking if Mormons still tollerate the bloody atrocities perpetrated by their previous leaders. I know its easy to become a follower today but I can't understand how anyone can respect or follower blood thirsty crimminals like Young and Smith.

And I'm merely explaining that in this website, we don't make unfounded accusations, or make all these assertions without sources. So provide them, or retract.

[Flip Jackson]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt in admitting that there could be truth to these things. I do have a couple of problems with the evidence, but it is there. It seems odd that so much of the info came from one man, John D. Lee. This means he either wanted to tell the truth of the atrocities, or he wanted to put some soil on the church for whatever reason.

It is exteremely difficult to come to a fair view of this. None of these things are taught to us. This means they didn't happen, or it is believed that such thngs don't need to be widely known. Mormons and supporters will claim that such things didn't happen and are made up, and anti-Mormon people will make up stories or will say that these evidences undoubtedly prove the falsity of the church. Neither is the most reliable source, hence our current problem.

I will answer some of your questions, but as I said many are in a tone of ridicule. Not very fair for someone who wants me to be fair in my opinion of my church.

Attempting to recruit children into an irrational cult? Biased and the question is already negative. If you have a real question, rephrase and I may answer. And define a cult, too. I haven't ever been given a good definition here.

Do we believe or practice "blood atonement?" No. I didn't hear of it until this forum. We believe that such things should have been done away at Christ's resurection. He gave a new law in which the we were commanded to sacrifice a broken heart and a contrite spirit. He was supposed to be tha last sacrifice.

Do I revere Joseph? Yes. He was a good man, to my knowledge, and brought about a great organization.

Your missionary question is also biased and demeaning, but I will answer to an extent. Why do we send missionaries? Because a lot of people want to hear our message. We have answers that so many popel are looking for. There is a lot of happiness to be found in what we teach, and we want to share that happiness. What exactly is a "prayer book?" We have no set prayers or anything, so I don't know what you mean. And we are very polite about our preaching. If you say you aren't interested, we leave you alone. If another group attempts to teach you, that is because missionaries switch locations every few months, so these guys are new to the area and don't know who does and doesn't want to hear. Besides people move and grow and change, so people who didn't use to want to listen, may later in life. That's it for that topic.

No, old men don't force young girls into marraige. Usually LDS people get married in their early to mid twenties to people of the same age. No forcing, and I haven't met any older men married to young girls. If they exist, they hide very well.


I do not automatically believe all your claims. They could easily be lies. They may be true. They are very different from what I have been taught, and I am disinclined to take them seriously. And you have a negative view of religion in general, so it is tough to take you as objective either. You believe all the reports of their crimes, but do not even look into the good they might have done? And it is nigh impossible to look through all the archives of our church. They are very large. You want me to find the few incriminating parts?

[IGX]

Quote by: Flip Jackson I will give you the benefit of the doubt in admitting that there could be truth to these things. I do have a couple of problems with the evidence, but it is there. It seems odd that so much of the info came from one man, John D. Lee. This means he either wanted to tell the truth of the atrocities, or he wanted to put some soil on the church for whatever reason.

Most criminal organizations have their weak link. But there is considerable corroborating evidence from other sources. For instance: The book entitled "Brigham's Destroying Angel": Chapter V of Bill Hickman's autobiographical manuscript, edited by J. H. Beadle. Contains the full transcripts of many events referred to in Tanner's article, including the murder of Richard Yates, the Massacre of the Aiken party from California, and other incidents related to Danite activities, "blood atonement," and the "Utah war" of 1857-58.

The Mormon Hierarchy: Extention of Power, Vol. 2, presents plenty of evidence to establish the fact that "blood atonement" murders were committed by the early Mormons

Then there's the diary of Hosea Stout who was a member of the Danite Band and later served as a body guard for Joseph Smith. In his diary, Stout frankly tells of some of the violent methods used by the Mormon leaders.

These two links contain more evidence: http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hicklhm.htm
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hickman.htm

There is also much evidence from the mouth of Brigham Young in his sermons which are recorded for any interested Mormon to read.

More recently: MOMONISM'S PROBLEM WITH CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE Information covers convictions of LDS Church Spokesperson Lloyd Gerald Pond and former Idaho State Senator Rex Furness. Details: http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/nov96_2.htm

Do we believe or practice "blood atonement?" No. I didn't hear of it until this forum.

The great-great granddaughter of Brigham Young has done extensive research into his preachings and practice of "blood atonement". She has concluded that early Mormons leaders have in fact used murder against adulterers in the name of the victims' "salvation" and also to maintain control over members. Then there's the cases of castration used against young men who refused to submit to the wishes of Mormon leaders (bishops) which is also presented as fact in Mrs Tanner's reports.

To my knowledge the blood line relatives of Brigham Young have no reason to unjustly besmirch their ancestors or the Mormon church. A contact e-mail address at the bottom of the report page is available for discussion of her findings, showing the authors are open to any relevant input.

I think it's very unlikely the current Mormon leadership are as ignorant, as you claim to have been, about the atrocities reported? They surely are aware of all the details. But, It's not in their best interest, or the best interest of the Mormon church to make such things common knowledge.

Another indication of corruption and dishonesty is being heavy involved in politics, which the Mormon church has always been. There are just too many "red flags" to ignore.

[Flip Jackson]

As I said before, it is hard for me to take these things seriously, because they are completely different from what I have learned. We aren't talking just about some secret problems, we are talking about the character and nature of these men who started the church. The one you paint is so much the opposite of what I know of these people. Either one is a lie, or there is truth that we don't know of yet. But why would a church with such beginnings become the entity it is today?It seems to contrast the current Mormon church.

As far as current problems wirh sexual abuse. First, this isn't a question. Second, you seem to forget that Mormons are human. Its not like the church promotes abuse. Its a problem everywhere. Just because people in the church do things they shouldn't, doesn't mean the whole church has a problem.

And what do you mean about being too involved in politics? Be more specific.

[IGX]

So, you consider that all the Mormon historians who've written about Mormon practice of "blood atonement" (murder) may have some ulterior motive for harming their church with an untruth. Do you think they all conspired to damage the Mormon church with a bunch of lies? And why would Mrs Tanner offer damning evidence against her own ancestors unless of course it's all true?

You are willing to ignore all those who confessed to witnessing and participating in atrocities, and the mountain of evidence produced by historians and yet you are willing to worship a entity which you can not even identify. Sounds like an extreme case of denial.

Quote by: Flip Jackson As far as current problems wirh sexual abuse. First, this isn't a question. Second, you seem to forget that Mormons are human.

A person who abuses the innocent minds of children might want to make excuses for child molesters, but I am not. Molesting children is not something that can be excused because the abuser was "just human".

Its not like the church promotes abuse.

No, they just cover it up and pretend it never happened.

Its a problem everywhere. Just because people in the church do things they shouldn't, doesn't mean the whole church has a problem.

Every Christian church expands its membership by abusing the minds of children with irrational beliefs.

And what do you mean about being too involved in politics? Be more specific.

Are you pleading ignorance to the Mormon church deciding who gets elected in Utah?

[Flip Jackson]

IGX, you aren't even being fair, now. You are just attacking.

What about all the Mormon historians and journals of Mormons that talk about how great the leaders were? I assure you, they are far more numerous than the ones that condemn the leaders.

Child abuse is not promoted or hidden, unless it is by leaders of the area not acting as they should. I don't excuse the people that abuse, they should each be punshed accordingly. I am saying that the church isn't the problem. The people are. Don't blame the entire church for what a few people do.

The church itself does not decide who gets put in office. Let's think about this a little. Generally, Mormons are Republican because most people seem to think that party matches with the churches views the best. Remember also that there are a ton of Mromons in Utah. So the church doesn't choose who is elected, but in a highly Mormon area, it is likely the Republican will be elected.

Continue in your current demeaning manner, and I will answer no more of your insults. If you have a legitimate question, I may answer.

[IGX]

Quote by: Flip Jackson IGX, you aren't even being fair, now. You are just attacking.

Hey, I merely listed the sources for the mountain of evidence pointing to the preaching and practice of "blood atonement" and other crimes. If these atrocities aren't true, why would any Mormon claim they are? And, why would Brigham Young preach "blood atonement" so convincingly?

What about all the Mormon historians and journals of Mormons that talk about how great the leaders were? I assure you, they are far more numerous than the ones that condemn the leaders.

Fine, list the names of 6 historians and the books in which they've written praise for Brigham Young or Joseph Smith.

[Flip Jackson]

IGX, you have an easier task, because it is so easy to find anti-Mormon stuff. I may take time to find journals and quotes by the men themselves and post them for you, but it takes a lot of effort on my part, which I don't feel like doing right now. I don't have the time.

[Flip Jackson]

If there are any other questions, please feel free to ask. I have been getting on the forum a lot recently, so I will be able to give answer to many questions, though they may be brief.

[IGX]

Quote by: Flip Jackson If there are any other questions, please feel free to ask. I have been getting on the forum a lot recently, so I will be able to give answer to many questions, though they may be brief.

If murders, rapes, and castrations were not part of the early Mormon church, why would so many Mormons claim they were? And, why would Brigham Young preach "blood atonement" so convincingly?