Ask a Christian

[rusty]

Quote by: Clarence do y'all believe we are born good or evil? not what the bible or whatever says, but from your experience. deception and evil run rampant. If we are born good, that's kinda proof of Satan, well Satan is proof of god. But if we're born bad and have to learn good, it could mean anything. I need one of the theologans to recite some verse I don't understand or believe, so hit me.

Clarance: I'm a lawyer, not a theologan. However, Romans chapter 3 which quotes from just a few versus of the Old Testament, which all say the same thing, emphatically claims we are born bad, and are not good at all. When someone called to Jesus: "Good Teacher." Jesus sharply responded with "Only God is good."

Now, I do believe we all have a veneer of what we think is good. However, all of us, define for ourselves what is good and evil. Often this aligns with God. More often it does not. Regarless if we are alligned with God or not, the fact we choose for ourselves good and evil is itself evil. Therefore, all of us are guilty of being evil. However, the good news of Christianity is that by accepting Jesus' love and fogiveness we will not be judged guilty.

According to Acts, we all must believe (initself insufficient accordng to Matthew 7 for salvation); repent and be baptized. All three. Others, only faith in Jesus. Galations 2. I myself have done all three - believe, repent and I've been baptized, but I am not dogmatic on being baptized.

Now Christ in me, makes me good. But it is not me, but Him. I argue with Him about this. Rusty: "Jesus, you and I know, I'm not really good." Jesus: "Oh my son, what I say is good is good. You chose to accept Me, I chose to make you good. You are good."

I have not learned to be good. I am not. I have eternal life now and will spend eternity with Jesus, becuse I chose to accept His death and resurrection, not becuse I am good.

I understand, i am really bad. I hide it. My friends (yes, you to MIA.) now the truth. I restrain myself from many things because of jail, social ostracism or just to fool people. My heartg is too o evil tings. When I have relented to what I considered a mild evil(off white) over time it became black. I know the Truth and worse, so does God.

Rusty

[rusty]

Quote by: ihaQ Which arguments particularily support the case for christianity the best?

ihaQ: Also, 300+ prophecies to who the jewish Messiah would be, what he would do, where born and the manner, genelogy, how die, betrayed, amount betrayed for, His nature, People's reaction to Him, Burial, and on and on. He and His followers could not have scripted this. There is I believe a reward to anyone who can identify anyone else in histor who can match even a few of the requirements of Messiah, much less 300+. So far, no claims.

There are billions of people in this world, fewer with the name Rusty, Fewer still in Texas, fewer in my city, much fewer in my zip code, and only a couple on my street, but only one at my address, city, state and zip. With only eight or ten prophecies, Jesus could be identified, with 300+.

Now who had the most desire to destroy the early cult of Christianity. Jews. Who could do it the easiest, the Jews. If He did not exist, the jews could have published an paper claiming that there was no such person the Christians were claiming was thier Messiah. Or, he did exist, but he didn't match just one of the prophetic prophecies. In law, there is something we call 'Substancial compliance', there is NO 'Substancial compliance in Messianic prophecy; only 100% compliance will surffice. The Babalonian tulmud speaks of Jesus. It says he was a false messiah, but no word on why he was a false messiah. Not that he was born of the wrong family, not born of a virgin, not appearing at the right time, not pierced, not betrayed, amount betrayed for wrong - nothing.

There is a specific time when the Messiah would appear to the Jews and how he would do it. No person before or after could claim to be the messiah becuse of the very specific time period from Daniel. Only one person appeared at the right time and manner - Jesus. The Jews knew the time and manner, yet in the Tulmud just says he was a false messiah. If it had just said how he was a false messiah by saying he didn't come at the right time or manner, not born in the right city(jews then kept tract of complete geneology and place of birth) the cult of Christianity would have been extinguished. The Jews had the motivation and the ability to stamp out early Christianity. However, the facts were to well known and official to deny.

Josh McDowell's book, The New Evidence that demands a verdict, explains this very well.

Rusty

[Boetie]

The title of this thread is ask a chrisitian so I'll ask christian. How to make sense out of the dualism of Jesus?

Many Chrisitans believe Jesus is both God and Man. This is problematic based on the following reasoning.

In order to know God one would have to be God. In order for God to know human, God would have to be human. In the human state God could not be God. So if God were pure human, how is it possible for God to switch back to God? the answer is God couldn't switch back because that would be like us having the power to switch to being a God.

[rusty]

Quote by: Boetie The title of this thread is ask a chrisitian so I'll ask christian. How to make sense out of the dualism of Jesus? Many Chrisitans believe Jesus is both God and Man. This is problematic based on the following reasoning. In order to know God one would have to be God. In order for God to know human, God would have to be human. In the human state God could not be God. So if God were pure human, how is it possible for God to switch back to God? the answer is God couldn't switch back because that would be like us having the power to switch to being a God.

Boetie: The mstery of the incarnation has baffled greater minds than me. A story: An intellectual man once scoffed at his wife's devotion for this reason. Once on Christmas eve some of his animals got out of the barn. A blizzard was expected so he went out to herd the animal back in. However, like herding cats, the animals only scattered. In the cold night, he wished he could become one of them. To tell them he wasn't trying to hurt them and only wanted to help them. At that moment, he heard the church bells chime. And he knew, Jesus came into the world to tell him, He wanted to help him. Jesus, being God, came into the world to show and tell us about Him. But we, like the animals only scatter and hide. How do you hide? My friends tell me on certain subjects, I hide in my intelligence.

I accepted Jesus in my youth where the 'how' wasn't important. My friendship with Mia tells me, she hides in her intelligence and, umm, beauty(I'm not fishing for a date Mia.)

However, to be the definition of God, nothing would be impossible for Him. To be human, Jesus, gave up many of the attributes of God. he had ntil then never been bound by his creation time. He knew everything before, he didn't after He came to earth. Many more, but I hope you get the ideal.

A Francisam monk who works in the slums of Philadelphia says: On the day when the Gates of heaven are being closed and the rest of humanity, not in heaven, will be subject to no love, no hope, no rest for eternity. He thinks Jesus will be there with a tear for those who rejected Him, and rejected His cries to help them. He loves those who rejected Him and chose not to be with Him. However, he respects their choice, as bad as it is.

Rusty

[LetThereBe]

I suppose you aren't catholic, but just incase:
Will someone PLEASE explain the immaculate conception to me!

[CJFreeman]

Quote by: LetThereBe I suppose you aren't catholic, but just incase: Will someone PLEASE explain the immaculate conception to me!

THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Christopher J. Freeman

[rusty]

Quote by: LetThereBe I suppose you aren't catholic[.]

No, I am not catholic, nor am I anti-Catholic.

I guess a quick CV on me would be appropiate. Not being raised by practicing Christians, my parents never enforced any type of religious worship on me. Yet, I accepted Jesus at 9 through a neighbor. As a youth, I would very occasionally visit a Baptist church. In college a visited a United Methodist church and joined another after college. Currently, I'm a member of a non-denominational church - Gateway (www.gatewaypeople.com). A, hmm, in matters of who I am, who Jesus is, and the how and what of salvation is - like Baptists.

I want to thank cjfreeman for posting an answer. I recognize Christianity is very broad. I would ask other Christian to share your viewpoints. I only ask that a person tells what denomination or descriptive of his/her church. I ask that people of other denominatins not argue their beliefs in this thread.

The differences in denominations are important, however, the basics of Christianity: 1) Jesus came in the flesh; 2) was crucified; and 3) rose from the dead and on the third day (1 - 3 are matters of history, which if challenged on - the topic of this thread - I have evidence for).

There are many Christian who would add or subtract from my list. I think my list is insufficeint for salvation, but that would be debating theology. I do not want this thread to be a theological debate. I do want people to debate the histocity of Jesus' life, ministry, death and resurrection.

Questions: What historical evisence is there for Jesus as a man of history? What evidense for His death? What evidence for His resurection? Why so many denominations - who is right? What scientific evidece for Creationism? If you(Rusty) believe that the stars are millions of light years away(I do) and you believe that the universe was created 6-10 thousand years ago(I do), can you scientifically explain that? Isn't the stories in Genesis mostly a myth? If the Bible was written from God, what evidence is there for that? The Bible is noe of the few religions that gives prophecy; how accurate is it over other religions?

Ok, I've started the type of questions I had in mind when I envisioned this thread. Though I do not miss Gordo's style of discussions, I do miss his good questioning. His quesions on the proofs of Jesus being from Nazarith was challanging, but I found strong evidence for it.

Rusty

[Jack]

Ignoring my own opinions from my previous life as a theist, let me ask what you think;
Where did the different races come from? What race were Adam and Eve? How did we get Asians and the Spanish for example?

[LetThereBe]

Quote by: CJFreeman THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm Christopher J. Freeman

I find that answer somewhat insufficient. It doesn't have any evidence from scripture, and that did not explain very well how the doctrine developed. My main problem is that the doctrine indicates God has the ability of removing sin without violating His perfect justice... but He won't do it. That terrifies me. How would a loving God be able to remove our sin, but do it for just one being. Also, why would the virgin birth be necessary if God could remove sin? It just seems to me that the church wanted to further glorify Mary, and used this as a justification for calling her perfect.

Also, I would like to hear some historical evidence for the Ressurection. I know far too little.

[rusty]

Quote by: Isherwood Ignoring my own opinions from my previous life as a theist, let me ask what you think; Where did the different races come from? What race were Adam and Eve? How did we get Asians and the Spanish for example?

Isherood: A fair question. I myself wondered about this until a few years ago. However, I do wonder: Are you race baiting me? There is only one race: The human race. Include Caucasoid(whites), Mongoloid(Chinese, native americans, Inuits, and Eskimos), blacks, and Australoids

Traditional and orthadox Christianity claim that all of present humanity are descendants of Noah, his wife, and his their sons and the sons' wives. So, in all the genetic diversity we see in man today was contained in those eight. After Babel, the clans of the original three sons, stayed together.

Instead of explaining all the different differences(I'm not qualified, I'm a lawyer, not a genestist.) However, let us take skin color (colour in the Queen's English). I understand that there are many genes that determine the amount of melanin produced. Some have many or most of the genes that say produce a lot of melanin (deep blacks) others have genes that only want to produce a little melanin (Northen Europeans whites). The differences between Chinese, Native American Indians, etc coloring can all be explained by the amount of genes. In simplicity G1 produces a lot of melanin, G2 produces very little. Depending on the mix.

In Noah and his wife were G1 and G1 genes. His children were perhaps different colorings or the wives were different. As the clans went their seperate ways, the differences became more identified with a specific groupings.

Differences in eye slants, is just the amount of fat around the eyes. K1 is for a little (Europeans), K2 is for a lot (Asians). All have some fat, some have a lot, some have a little.

Again, Noah, his wife and the wives of his three sons had between them. both K1 and K2 genes. Depending on the mix. However, again as grouping happened after Babel, then some with more K1s in the group started having children only with K1 genes and vice versa for K2.

This question leads into the evolution debate and others. We creationist have no problem with Micro-Evolution (evolution within a species to form a different breed of the same species) However, we debate Macro-Evolution (one species forming into another species).

Rusty

If you are more interested than my extreamely simplistic response, I'll refer you to a good book.

[rusty]

Quote by: LetThereBe I would like to hear some historical evidence for the Ressurection. I know far too little.

LetThereBe: No esurrection, No Christianity.

The historical evidence is this. The AMA once did a story of what would happen to a person if whipped 40 times as the Romans whipped. The result was because of loss of blood, a person would lmost be dead afterwads. Being hung on a cross for three hours. would kill a man. It killed Jesus. So, stories of him not dying are medical nonsense.

Who had the most motive and abiliy to disprove the resurection of Jesus. The Jews.

If Jesus' body was not stolen:

The jewish history is that the disciples stole his body from a oman guard. The penalty for the guards falling asleep would be death and the disciples would know his resurection was a hoax. Yet, all but John died for what they knew was a lie. A Roman emperor John attempted to kill John by boiling alive in oil. John lived. John as whipped and sent into exil. Yet, none of the disciples ever contradicted their story. They maintained Jesus died, ose on the thid day, walked with them, they talked with Him, ate with Him. There were also 500 others who saw Him. There is nothing from the Jews or Romans to say there were no 500 people "we can not find them". And many died for believing what they knew was a lie.

As a lawyer, I'll tell you: People do not do that. When it is their life - they confess. The disciples no the 500 ever changed their accounts.

If Jesus' body was not stolen

The Jews very quickly wanted to crush this new cult. All they had to do was go get the body from a cave, end of the cult. the possibilities are these: One, Jesus' body was stolen by th disciples who never saw Him after His death, yet were willing to be crucufied, whipped, exiled, boiled in oil, etc for what they knew was a lie; Two, he was not removed by His disciples and the Jews who wanted and could crush the cult, failed to go check out His tomb, there is still the witnesses accounts who were willing to die for those accounts, when they hadn't seen Him alive, but were willing to die for it; or three He did ris and the disciples and 500 others saw Him.

My argument here sn't airtight. In Lee Strobel's book The Case For Christ, he present evidence that poves Beyond A Reasonable Doubt Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today.

As to your othe question, I'll answer later today.

Rusty

[Athena]

Before Moses who did God talk with?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Athena Before Moses who did God talk with?

Lots of folks: Adam and Eve, Cain, probably Enoch, Noah and his sons, Abram (who later became Abraham), his wife Sarah, Abimelech in a dream, Isaac, his wife Rebekah, and Jacob. Hagar and Lot spoke with angels. These are the ones we know about from Genesis.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Lots of folks: Adam and Eve, Cain, probably Enoch, Noah and his sons, Abram (who later became Abraham), his wife Sarah, Abimelech in a dream, Isaac, his wife Rebekah, and Jacob. Hagar and Lot spoke with angels. These are the ones we know about from Genesis.

Okay, do you know the dates? Like there appears to be a time when God was doing His thing and a time when He hasn't.

And how about all the other people in the world? Was God talking to all the people in the people in the world?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Athena Okay, do you know the dates?

Only what the scripture says. Not in years BC in those days,

Quote by: Athena Was God talking to all the people in the people in the world?

If He talks, you better listen! But I bet a lot of folks never stopped to listen down through the years.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Only what the scripture says. Not in years BC in those days, If He talks, you better listen! But I bet a lot of folks never stopped to listen down through the years.

Well, God speaks to me, and I know the bible should not be interpreted literally as many Christians are doing. I don't think Bush understood God correctly when he went to war with Iraq and when he ignored the hurricane for several days when major damage was expected. And why didn't God tell Bush to fund work on the levies and protect New Orleans in the first place? Like how can we be sure of what God is saying to us and about who is deluded and who is God really speaking to.

Exactly what kind of this stuff does tell people? Did God tell Moses the story of Adam and Eve? Why is the biblical story of creation the same as the much older Egyptian story? Did God tell it to the Egyptians? Did God talk with the Mayan? Did God tell the same things to the Chinese? Did God have an angel tell Mohammed what to tell the Abrabs? How do we know? Why aren't we searching all books of knowledge for what God said to all people? Wouldn't this make sense if we really wanted to know about God?

[PatrickHenry]

Good points, Athena! Answer to your plethora of questions: I don't know

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Good points, Athena! Answer to your plethora of questions: I don't know

I honor your wisdom Patrick Henry. Wisdom begins with knowing we don't know. If Christians were so wise, our reality would be much better.

[CJFreeman]

Quote by: Athena I honor your wisdom Patrick Henry. Wisdom begins with knowing we don't know. If Christians were so wise, our reality would be much better.

How hackneyed!

The basic attitude toward Christianity on this board is that if it wasn't what it is, then we'd all be much better off. Stupid.

Christopher J. Freeman

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: CJFreeman The basic attitude toward Christianity on this board is that if it wasn't what it is, then we'd all be much better off. Stupid.

Are you saying Christianity is perfect? There's LOTS of dysfunction in Christianity, IMO. Support for aggressive wars, an unblinking support for naked economic imperialism, and worship of the false god that is America. Not to mention excuses for the sins of the Republican Party.