Prayer appears to have no effect on patients in study

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

Praying for someone who is ill and preparing to undergo a risky medical procedure appears to have no effect on the patient's future health.

That's the finding of one of the largest scientific investigations of the power of prayer, published today in the British medical journal the Lancet. Scientists said it undoubtedly will renew debates over whether prayer has a measurable effect on illness and even whether it's a suitable subject of scientific inquiry.

Researchers at Duke University recruited nearly 750 people undergoing heart-related procedures. Religious groups of different denominations were randomly assigned to pray for the health of half the volunteers; the other half received no organized prayers.

The prayers by representatives of Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist faiths had no effect on whether patients experienced postprocedure complications, such as heart attack, death or readmission to the hospital. But a nontraditional intervention known as "MIT therapy," which involves playing music and administering therapeutic touch at the bedside, had a slight beneficial health effect.

Volunteers who received MIT therapy, researchers found, had less emotional distress before their procedures and slightly lower mortality rates six months after admission.

Dr. Mitchell Krucoff, the Duke University cardiologist who led the study, said the research, sponsored by several medical centers and foundations, was not intended to provide a definitive answer to the question of whether prayer works.

It was mostly intended to determine the best way to evaluate the influence of prayer. "This is still very fertile ground," he said.

Research on prayer during the last decade has been highly controversial. Most studies have focused on so-called intercessory prayer -- petitions made directly on behalf of someone else -- as opposed to patients praying for their own health. While some studies have found measurable clinical effects, critics say they are often riddled with statistical flaws. The results of others have been too ambiguous to draw conclusions.

Trivializing faith?

"Nobody disputes that religious practices bring comfort to people in times of illness," said Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University and a frequent critic of prayer research. "The question is, can medicine add anything to that? It trivializes the religious experience to think you can subject it to the measurement of science."

Even researchers who study prayer concede that the discipline is fraught with potential pitfalls. In a standard clinical trial of a new drug, for example, the dosage a volunteer receives is monitored. "But how do you define a 'dose' of prayer?" Sloan said.

A large 2004 survey by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that 41 percent of Americans prayed for their own health while 24 percent asked others to pray for them.

In an accompanying editorial, the Lancet said, "The contribution that hope and belief make to a personal understanding of illness cannot be dismissed so lightly. They are proper subjects for science, even while transcending its known bounds."


http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5507502.html

So are people who pray for loved ones that are ill really doing it to make themselves feel better? Isn't this selfish? If it has no effect on ill people, why do it? Shouldn't people who pray for the ill find some other way to help that actually makes a difference?

When a politician states that his thoughts and prayers go out to the injured and dead of the London bombings, is he really saying that he doesn't care? It's a bit like donating a dollar to red cross, it looks good and makes you feel better but it really achieves nothing.

[Flip Jackson]

But what of all those who pray for others in addition to support. Surely there can be no fault in doing both. It might not be prayer that you quetstion, but maybe the intent of those who pray for others and don't act. It will always be hard to "prove" that prayer works. As far as I am concerned, prayer shouldn't be provable to everyone. As has been pointed out, that kid of removes faith. I hope that doesn't look like a cop-out, but some things with religon shouldn't be attempted to be proven. If religion were easy to prove, everone would believe in God. Faith and our choice to pick a religion would no longer be necessary.

[Technosoul]

Imagination and concentration can bring about changes, as I pointed out in anohter post about who Yoko Ono advocated such group consciousness to bring forth a new world order of peace and understanding.

[Starboy]

Meditation can accomplish similar things and appears to work a whole lot better at calming people down.

Starboy

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson But what of all those who pray for others in addition to support. Surely there can be no fault in doing both. It might not be prayer that you quetstion, but maybe the intent of those who pray for others and don't act. It will always be hard to "prove" that prayer works. As far as I am concerned, prayer shouldn't be provable to everyone. As has been pointed out, that kid of removes faith. I hope that doesn't look like a cop-out, but some things with religon shouldn't be attempted to be proven. If religion were easy to prove, everone would believe in God. Faith and our choice to pick a religion would no longer be necessary.

This post was funny and slightly contradictory, judging your standpoint on religion. He never said anything about the "both" praying and successfully supporting the victims. He just said praying. When my aunt says she'll pray for me, before my surgery, I really don't give a shit--because it won't do anything. The doctors are fixing me, not her. Now maybe if she paid for the surgery, that's the "both" that your talking about.

When you say some things in religion can't be proved, you should really replace "some" with "all." Nothing in religion can be proved. If I'm wrong, prove it.

Quote by: Flip Jackson If religion were easy to prove, everone would believe in God.

Are you serious? This is what made me laugh...Hundreds of people are converted every day by the followers of a religion because they persuade them to believe in God. Isn't that what you want. Everyone to believe in God? Wouldn't that make God happy? So unpredictable.

[Flip Jackson]

Soccer, you are relatively new, and it seems to me that you seem to enjoy trying to degrade people that don't agree with you.

First, Seeker said that instead of praying, people should do something more productive. He then asked why people pray if it has no effect. Maybe it has effect, but only if those praying have good intentions, which would be shown by the fact that they offer assistance beside prayer alone. So my comment had its place.

You misread my remarks. I didn't say some things couldn't be proven, but that we shouldn't try to prove them. What's the point? Many things in religion are personal. Many times facts are dismissed anyway if people don't agree with the results. Religion is about faith. If you rely on science for your religion, then you won't stand strong in your church. As soon as something comes up that can't be "proven" you would bolt.

And not that it really matters, but some things can be proven. But I doubt you will take them seriously, nor is htis the thread for it.

God wants people to believe, as do I. But we should believe by faith not science.

I have to go for now.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Flip Jackson God wants people to believe, as do I. But we should believe by faith not science.

Believe what you want but if you want people to believe in god and prayer and try to do so openly then you are fair game for people who want you to eschew faith and rely on reason. And when they do so you should not complain like a little child who was caught with their hand in the cookie jar. If you don't like it done to you then do not do it to others.

Starboy

[ibm]

excellent point, starboy. but obviously some don't think that way.

[Suburbanite]

I think if they prayed AROUND the patience so they could see them praying, or all went and said "I'm praying for you" It would work better.

[Cephus]

They've been doing studies on prayer like this for decades and they have never come out in favor of prayer. It just doesn't work.

You can't tell the patient you're praying for them, that's not what they're studying. It's been well known for a long time that the mental state of the patient has a lot to do with getting well. They're supposed to be studying the effectiveness of the supernatural component of prayer and so far, there appears to be absolutely no effect.

[Flip Jackson]

Starboy, I don't see why you feel the need to throw me into general Christian areas, when I am sure you have noticed that I don't fall in with mainstream Christianity.

I am not complaining if you don't agree. I have said repeatedly that you have that right. I don't condemn you or others. What bothers me are assumptions that anyone who belives in these things is illogical, foolish, stupid, or whatever. I still believe in prayer despite the experiment that this thread shows. But I do so with logic and reason. I have also said that I believe in science and religion, we try to cross the two when they don't need to.

I have more to say but have to get back to work. I'll finish this later.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Suburbanite I think if they prayed AROUND the patience so they could see them praying, or all went and said "I'm praying for you" It would work better.

In order to do it properly you must also have a placebo supernatural religion. One group should pray to Zhule the Destroyer and the other group to god. I would laugh my ass off if Zhule came out ahead.

Starboy

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Flip Jackson You misread my remarks. I didn't say some things couldn't be proven, but that we shouldn't try to prove them. What's the point? Many things in religion are personal. Many times facts are dismissed anyway if people don't agree with the results. Religion is about faith. If you rely on science for your religion, then you won't stand strong in your church. As soon as something comes up that can't be "proven" you would bolt. And not that it really matters, but some things can be proven. But I doubt you will take them seriously, nor is htis the thread for it. God wants people to believe, as do I. But we should believe by faith not science.

I have yet to see someone give me a "personal reason" for believing in God. One was that their dad overcame cancer. Which is not a legitimate reason at all, because many do that without the use of prayer. So a distinct personal reason is all I'm looking for. Maybe my last post made me come off harsh. But really I'm an extremely objective person. When I feel the least bit swayed in opinion, I investigate to refine a new opinion or keep the same one if the source was wrong.

And please, show me the things that can be proven. Consider me a doubting Thomas. Jesus apparently showed himself to him, so maybe he'll do it to others. As of yet, that hasn't happened, which is unfortunate. And yes, with a legitimate proven theory, I would gladly take it seriously.

[Flip Jackson]

I have many personal reasons for believing in God. First and foremost, is that it makes sense to me. I have looked at other religions and other explanations. They don't work for me. The idea that we happened to be on a planet suitable for life. That our planet existed this long and hasn't experienced any kind of disaster that would anihilate our species. That we have the ability to think and reason. That we continue to thrive. That everything works as well together as it does. I do not see this happening by chance. Do realize how uncommon this is in our Universe. EXTREMELY. Based on what I have learned about astronomy, very few planets in the Universe could support beings like us. Chance doesn't work for me.

As far as personal reasons for my faith, the things that I am told will happen, DO. I am Mormon, so many of my experiences will be unique when compared to other religions. We have what we call "the Word of Wisdom," which basically advises us on how we should treat our body. One of the blessings of this commandment is that I can "run and not be weary, walk and not faint." Though I have never been in great shape, I have been able to do a lot more than was possible for me physically, because I followed this principle.

The problem with trying to prove prayer, is that we are trying to tell God what to do. That isn't how prayer works. We should try to find out what He wants for us, then ask for that so he can give it to us. He won't grant us for everything we ask for. But I have had pryaers answered. When I was in depressed or in a bad mood, I would pray, and instead of something happening to make me happy, my ATTITUDE changed. I knew it was an answer to my prayer, becuase no amount of positive thinking had ever done that for me before.

I am not so foolish to say that everything I pray for I will get. But prayer does work. If God thinks it will be good for us to grant our prayers, He will do so. He will not anser a prayer to prove Himself in an experiment. He doesn't work that way. I am not commanding Him, but am telling you thew way things work.

You don't have to belive any of this, but these are some of the reasons why I believe. I am no fool. I have seriously looked at many of my beliefs. I have wondered if they were true or not. Sometimes I have seriously doubted, but each time that happens, I work to find an answer and become more resolute in my faith afterwards.

Unlike many faiths, we are encouraged to study and seek answers for ourselves. When we question our beliefs honestly, we see how happy they make us.

You can ridicule me all you like. But I am happy with who I am and what I believe. No other religion or even atheism would work for me, because they don't seem logical to me.

Here is the kicker as to why I know my religion is true. The motivation. Other churches want money, or publicity. They try to use fear and guilt to show you that you should belive them.

You know what the entire goal of Mormonism is. HAPPINESS. We want people to be happy. That is why we have the rules we do. They actually make people happy. That is why we have missionaries. Many people are truly happy when they here about our church.

Those are my personal reasons.

[Flip Jackson]

I will get to the physical proof once I have found sources to back me up. I don't want to appear as if I am making things up.

[asterix404]

How about this... I love playing the devils advocate.... it's a lot of fun. I really doubt that other people praying has any effect at all... however the person going in for surgery or whatever it is.... would be helped by it at least mentally. Praying gives hope, hope can never be a bad thing though hope only works with the person doing it. I would be cerious to see if people who prayed for themselves and worked to get better vs people who gave up but still go through the motions of getting better... well I have lost it but you know what I am saying. Or even not praying... just... being spiritually active or being in a support group, something to keep up your hope...

[mr.perfecto]

God has to take his loyal believers home at some point. The more important question is whether the patients go to heaven or hell when they die. It would be interesting to see how many people took a greater interest in God after a life-threatening medical procedure.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Flip, those personal experiences involved none of the proofs I was talking about. You can feel anything you want. And in your case, you can feel anything you want to feel, by redirecting your thoughts away from the problem. That is a good way to live life, no sarcasm there. But when talking about the truths and proofs of such things goes in our favor still.

This proves my theory of why religion continues in the first place. Being alone during much of this, you probably needed hope from something. Religion was your answer. It may not be true, but it sure does a hell of a job making me happy.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Starboy In order to do it properly you must also have a placebo supernatural religion. One group should pray to Zhule the Destroyer and the other group to god. I would laugh my ass off if Zhule came out ahead.

That wouldn't be at all uncommon in these studies. In fact, Christianity often comes out way behind other religions.

It's all a crapshoot anyhow, just like religion.

[MerlinsByte]

Yes, well coming right on the heels of this study was an expose' on these medical journals. The findings were that within a year I think it was that over 51% of the time the findings were reversed of the information was faulty. Maybe they should flip a coin next time.

According to my beliefs one must know they are being prayed for, to receive maximum benefit. This "tunes their receiver to the right frequency" to receive the prayers and other majack. I hope I dont offend traditional Christians by referring to prayer as majack, because it is. Oh, and majack is contemporary magic .