Prayer appears to have no effect on patients in study

[Samildanach]

There is no logical explanation for telepathy. Show me some data for that statement on its existence.

Not yet there isn't but I wouldn't be so ready to discount the probability. We have made devices which can communicate wirelessly...so why do you think it is is implausible that nature could do the same?
A thing I realised a while ago, is that for every electronic circuit there will be a biological circuit and vice versa.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Zeebadee I appreciate the low-key response, it makes a dialogue much more pleasant and possible. I'm not claiming there is a God, I'm merely stating the fact that a Creator is entirely possible, in fact, to me, much more reasonable than believing that the universe exploded into existence from nothing. We have such a limited understanding of the breadth and depth of the universe, it just seems silly to me to declare categorically that God either exists or doesn't. For me, there are times I can look out my window see how good life is on earth and know that there is a God. Other times I can see the discrepancies and contradictions in organized religion and feel a sense of despair that there really may be nothing more than what we have in this meager existence. I guess the best feeling comes from the positive viewpoint, therefore, that's what I tend to believe. I don't try to convert anyone, I'm not dishonest, I just basically believe, a gut feeling, that we are here for some purpose. If you don't, that's fine with me. I don't criticize you until you start to try and define for me what I believe.

Forming your beliefs based on gut feelings is not being rational about it. So it would not be honest to claim that you hold your beliefs rationally. And if in your life you would not consider a gut feeling to be a good reason to think something then you would have to consider your gut feelings about god in the same way. That is how you go about being honest with yourself. The most likely person to fool you is yourself.

Starboy

[ibm]

Quote by: Starboy Forming your beliefs based on gut feelings is not being rational about it. Starboy

that is quite true. on the other hand, it doesn't have to be rational.

[Starboy]

Quote by: ibm that is quite true. on the other hand, it doesn't have to be rational.

Never said it did. But if you are not holding your beliefs rationally and get upset when someone points that out to you then you are hardly being honest with yourself.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

Forming your beliefs based on gut feelings is not being rational about it. So it would not be honest to claim that you hold your beliefs rationally.

A gut feeling is frequently your sub conscious comparing information and giving you a logical response. Also it is a fact that many researchers believe (as do I ) that the brain uses Quantum processes which are poorly understood. I think it is you, Starboy that is incapable of rational thought on some subjects, such as religion. Zeeadee is a deep thinker and your thinking is predictable and sterile. Good for some issues like some math problems such as traditional basic math, but not so good for most other subjects. Your gifts of left brain thinking are better used in science (rather than religion)


Not a slam just an observed truth.

mb

[ibm]

you can make your judgment on religion (and if there is god) based on your logic thinking (rationality), or based on "gut feelings", or faith (which imo by default is blind), etc. none is superior or inferior to any other. that's all i was saying.

the truth is in the eyes of the beholder.

[Starboy]

Quote by: ibm you can make your judgment on religion (and if there is god) based on your logic thinking (rationality), or based on "gut feelings", or faith (which imo by default is blind), etc. none is superior or inferior to any other. that's all i was saying. the truth is in the eyes of the beholder.

But Zeebadee's issues with me do not revolve around the freedom to make such choices but around my contention that to hold supernatural beliefs without believing in everything supernatural is dishonest. There is no honest way to accept one supernatural belief and then reject other supernatural beliefs without using a double standard. Using one standard to accept you particular beliefs but then not applying that same standard to other supernatural beliefs where it would also cause you to accept them and then applying another standard to reject other supernatural beliefs when those same standards of rejection would lead you to reject your own supernatural beliefs is not honest. But that kind of dishonesty is practiced by just about every supernaturalist on the planet.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

I think that in general, if you are supposed to die, then it's your time. I believe that god very seldomly will miraculously heal someone who is about to die. I think that praying for a loved one's well being is more tharaputic to the family than it is helpful to the person undergoing the trauma.

To be honest, I have never witnessed a healing from a prayer or blessing. I have been told of them by people I trust, and I believe them, but I must be straightforward and admit that I can not testify that I have seen this happen.

[ibm]

starboy, i've seen your point all the way. so no need to "explain" to me.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Starboy But Zeebadee's issues with me do not revolve around the freedom to make such choices but around my contention that to hold supernatural beliefs without believing in everything supernatural is dishonest. There is no honest way to accept one supernatural belief and then reject other supernatural beliefs without using a double standard. Using one standard to accept you particular beliefs but then not applying that same standard to other supernatural beliefs where it would also cause you to accept them and then applying another standard to reject other supernatural beliefs when those same standards of rejection would lead you to reject your own supernatural beliefs is not honest. But that kind of dishonesty is practiced by just about every supernaturalist on the planet. Starboy

Starboy that's a great thought. I thought about the same thing one time, but never spent much time on it. The fact that there are hundreds of religions (and sects of each for that matter) on the planet in hysterical. What makes one religion so much more believable than the next. They all involve some type of messiah (besides Judaism, unless you count Jesus), some type of higher power, and some type of reference book with all the "answers" to life's burning questions.

[Samildanach]

I would agree that a gut feeling is your subconscious directing you in a certain direction. If you have ever made an intuitive leap that is also the subconscious at work, sometimes it just does all the steps inbetween for you without explaining and arrives at the logical conclusion.
It may take some time to retrace all the steps inbetween but most of the time you can.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Starboy But Zeebadee's issues with me do not revolve around the freedom to make such choices but around my contention that to hold supernatural beliefs without believing in everything supernatural is dishonest. There is no honest way to accept one supernatural belief and then reject other supernatural beliefs without using a double standard. Using one standard to accept you particular beliefs but then not applying that same standard to other supernatural beliefs where it would also cause you to accept them and then applying another standard to reject other supernatural beliefs when those same standards of rejection would lead you to reject your own supernatural beliefs is not honest. But that kind of dishonesty is practiced by just about every supernaturalist on the planet. Starboy

It's been a long, hot day out here, and I have had a couple of cold ones, with the intention of continuing that process, so I may ramble a little. Perhaps we don't agree on two points of your post, exactly what constitutes "supernatural", and how to selectively agree or disagree with such beliefs. If one believes in a Creator (not to be confused with God), there is a good deal of evidence to base that belief on, most notably the fact that we are here. The universe is real, it is physical, and we are a part of it. If you find a morning newspaper on your porch, it didn't get there from a "singularity", exploding from nothing, someone put it there. The creation of the universe is therefore no more a supernatural event than the creation of your morning paper. There's no requirement that you believe every supernatural claim simply because you believe in the creation of the world as we know it. What's dishonest is to knowingly claim that there is. Since you are obviously not stupid, you must be making this claim deliberately. At this point, religion hasn't even been a consideration in the process. That comes later. Ok, I'm off for a brew!!