Did God Write the Bible

[Technosoul]

I really have nothing much to add or to explain about the queston of this poll - when and if you vote, or if you select not to vote, add you opinon based on something you think would sound logical. or rant and rage at your heart's content.

[abub]

I voted for "Men who wanted to control or subject others to create social order", because I think it's the most brilliant moral compass and also the biggest burden on mankind. I believe the bible is an attempt to civilize and moralize the human race gone terribly wrong.

[PatrickHenry]

I read it every day! It's a lotta things, but it was obviously penned by men. I think God motivated most of it, through His spirit. Some of it is just plain sludge, though. Like the census in Numbers, and the ritual stuff in Leviticus. But there's ancient wisdom literature, prophecy(very mysterious), metaphoric instruction for the present age, a path to eternal salvation through faith in Jesus, and sound doctrine for a coherent christian belief system. I love it...

[lsbskins1]

I don't mean to be a smart-ass, but isn't that kind of like asking who wrote The New York Times? Different people, over many years, with differing purposes and multiple editors.

Karen Armstrong gives a pretty good overview and I am posting a link that kind of condenses some of the things she says in A History of God, an excellent book if you are interested.
http://www.necessaryprose.com/armstrong.htm

[Prometheus]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I read it every day! It's a lotta things, but it was obviously penned by men. I think God motivated most of it, through His spirit. Some of it is just plain sludge, though. Like the census in Numbers, and the ritual stuff in Leviticus. But there's ancient wisdom literature, prophecy(very mysterious), metaphoric instruction for the present age, a path to eternal salvation through faith in Jesus, and sound doctrine for a coherent christian belief system. I love it...

ditto

[Starboy]

It is no more or less the work of god than any other work that is claimed to be the work of god. But the contents of the bible are much better explained if it were a work of man than if it were a work of god. What does god need with a bible? And if the bible were something special then why not have them grow on trees? Why do they come out of a publishing plant the same as any other book?

Starboy

[Lilith]

No, I don't think that God wrote the bible.

And I have yet to find a version of it that does not put me to sleep.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Starboy It is no more or less the work of god than any other work that is claimed to be the work of god. But the contents of the bible are much better explained if it were a work of man than if it were a work of god. What does god need with a bible? And if the bible were something special then why not have them grow on trees? Why do they come out of a publishing plant the same as any other book? Starboy

No one really claims that god wrote it. Thats why the books are named after people named Matthew and John - not god. It's called the new/old testament, because thats all it is. A bunch of primitives saying what they thought they saw.

Weather they were lying, or were interpriting what they saw correctly is worth debating, but wheather god wrote it is not really debatable.

[Athena]

Quote by: Prometheus No one really claims that god wrote it. Thats why the books are named after people named Matthew and John - not god. It's called the new/old testament, because thats all it is. A bunch of primitives saying what they thought they saw. Weather they were lying, or were interpriting what they saw correctly is worth debating, but wheather god wrote it is not really debatable.

But this is not true of the Koran which is written as through God were speaking directly to the reader. This is the same religion as Judaism and Christianity only an Arab intrepretation of that religion. Now what would we say of the Muslims who believe the Koran is the word of God and not the work of humans? Keeping in mind, the same thing that could be said of these Muslims, could be said of Christians and the bible and Jews and the Torah, and the Aztecs who also believed God lead them to the promised land.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Athena But this is not true of the Koran which is written as through God were speaking directly to the reader. This is the same religion as Judaism and Christianity only an Arab intrepretation of that religion. Now what would we say of the Muslims who believe the Koran is the word of God and not the work of humans? Keeping in mind, the same thing that could be said of these Muslims, could be said of Christians and the bible and Jews and the Torah, and the Aztecs who also believed God lead them to the promised land.

It may be written as though god is speaking, but it is understood by all that it is mearly moses relaying what he said he heard. (we are assuming a historical charictar named moses)

[Athena]

Quote by: Prometheus It may be written as though god is speaking, but it is understood by all that it is mearly moses relaying what he said he heard. (we are assuming a historical charictar named moses)

Huh? Prometheus, our thoughts don't seem to be connecting. The following is from a web site.

"The Qur'an (in Anglicized form: Koran ) is certainly the greatest literary work in classical Arabic and for all Muslims stands as the definitive word of God (in Arabic: Allah ) spoken to the prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. When reading the Qur'an , you should realize that, for all Muslims, the text you are reading is quite literally the voice of God; because the Qur'an is the direct speech of God in Arabic, translation of the work is seen as blasphemy, as an unforgivable tampering with God's own speech. Nevertheless, the Qur'an has been translated into Turkish and Farsi (the language of Iran) in this century and is recited in these languages in religious services in Turkey and Iran. The Muslim community tolerates this but just barely. For all practical purposes, to be Muslim, then, means almost universally to be able to read and understand classical Arabic, despite what one's native language is.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ISLAM/QURAN.HTM

[Athena]

I must argue the idea that men wrote out of pure imagination. The bible is very much the result of applying Law of Nature to religion. This is not the Laws of Nature, as I normally use this term, but a legal tool for determining what the laws of different city/states share in common and coming to a just decision when a case involves people from different city/states with different laws.

The bible is strongly influenced by Egypt's theology, Isis being the person to judge souls and the "BREAD AND WATER", long before Jesus took this religious role and became the "Bread and Wine". Wine because it is the color of blood, and this demonstrates the barbaric influence on this religion.

The Hebrews translated Sumerian stories when they were in Ur, and these become the first bible stories. However, in the translation of this myth, corrections were made so stories of many gods became stories with only one God.

None of this is people writing fantasy, but people using the best documention available to them, and using the best reasoning of their time, to write about God, the every best they could. Just the same as we write of quantum physics today. It is not a desire to control people, but to tell truth as best as it can be understood. Now from here, people surely use myth and religon for power and social control. Heck, even telling about the great hunt around the camp fire has a degree of social control, because it is telling all the listeners what to do to get attention and status. The purpose of myth is to transition the youth to adulthood. It is not a bad thing.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Athena Huh? Prometheus, our thoughts don't seem to be connecting. The following is from a web site.

Yes, I am afraid I was being ignorant. I was confusing the Koran and the torah. But as I understand it, the Koran, Torah, and Books of Moses (first 4 in the old testament) contain basically the same story and doctorines. If this is the case, wouldn't it be fair to say that they have the same roots?

If I have my history right, jews and muslims trace thier roots back to abraham, and christians go back to jews. These 3 faiths are the "people of the book" i.e. the books of moses. These 3 faiths have a lot in common. It's a pity they fight so much.

[Athena]

Quote by: Prometheus Yes, I am afraid I was being ignorant. I was confusing the Koran and the torah. But as I understand it, the Koran, Torah, and Books of Moses (first 4 in the old testament) contain basically the same story and doctorines. If this is the case, wouldn't it be fair to say that they have the same roots? If I have my history right, jews and muslims trace thier roots back to abraham, and christians go back to jews. These 3 faiths are the "people of the book" i.e. the books of moses. These 3 faiths have a lot in common. It's a pity they fight so much.

Correct, the three religions have the same roots, but different influences. For me, I am interested in why Egypt forgot its own theology and became Muslim? Now that you pushed me to this question, I am going to have to google it. When did Egypt become Muslim?

[liverleef]

It's my personal belief that there is a supreme being of some sort but not the god of the bible. Having men who were "inspired by God" to write your message to humanity is fairly inefficient. The message is easily mistranslated or confused or misinterpreted or somehow corrupted by men. I think our creator would recognize this. I also think that the god of the bible is often portrayed as a jealous tyrant which is totally inconsistant with how I believe the creator of the universe would be. I actually could spend a good deal of time discussing portions of the bible which seem illogical to me. I do make it a point to try to respect all religious beliefs within reason.

[Sonart]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I read it every day! It's a lotta things, but it was obviously penned by men. I think God motivated most of it, through His spirit. Some of it is just plain sludge, though. Like the census in Numbers, and the ritual stuff in Leviticus. But there's ancient wisdom literature, prophecy(very mysterious), metaphoric instruction for the present age, a path to eternal salvation through faith in Jesus, and sound doctrine for a coherent christian belief system. I love it...

Coming from a believer, I find this to be an extraordianarily pragmatic and realistic take on the Bible. As a non-believer, I might amend it just a tad...

"I think God motivated most of it, through the writer's belief in God."

As to "a path to eternal salvation through faith in Jesus,", well, I don't believe in eternal salvation, but if it comforts and inspires a believer, fine. If it leads them to condemn non-believers, not fine.

.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Sonart Coming from a believer, I find this to be an extraordianarily pragmatic and realistic take on the Bible. As a non-believer, I might amend it just a tad... "I think God motivated most of it, through the writer's belief in God." As to "a path to eternal salvation through faith in Jesus,", well, I don't believe in eternal salvation, but if it comforts and inspires a believer, fine. If it leads them to condemn non-believers, not fine.

Thanks for reaffirming to us all that atheists and theists can have an intellegent discussion.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the point of wheather the bible was inspired by god, or by a belief in god, but this point certainly dosent have to become contentious. These two statements are so close to oneanother, that after that statement, everything is basically the same after the question of it's inspiration is answered.

[Technosoul]

It would seem that the Bible, and mainly the story of Moses telling Eqypt to "let my people go" that was the cause of the split between Eqypt and the newer Jewish "religion or nationality". (idenity). In spite of the fact that they all migrated out of the kingdom of Sumer, and Ur was one of the cities of that Kingdom. Now the history of Egypt notes that had a king once who was called Moses, that alone is interesting. But they claim that after Egypt had created a great culture some people came and squated on thier land, without permission, to take advantage of the abundance the culture in Egypt had going on. Much like folks from Mexico might come to the USA without permission. As the story went the king at that time drove all those "ill legals" (who had set up camps) out of Eqypt.
As those people were driven out of Eqypt they started a new "hebrew" culture of their own in a different location. Then the Hebrews created their own version of the story claiming they had been slaves who had escaped bondage and who were 'set free' by someone called Moses who later came to know God personally (while on a mountain). Likewise the Hebrews claim that their nationality had been around before they had been taken into bondage by Eqypt because Adam and Eve and Noah were here before the Kingdom of Sumer had been established. Pre-flood (and pre-ice age, and for some reason the Bible never mentioned the ice age and its effect on humanity). As Abraham and the idol makers started to question the concept that "gods made out of stones" were not the "living god". So Moses replaced the stone gods with stone tablets. With the same effect.

The strange thing also is that the commandments scribed on the tablets were nearly identical with what Babylon had carved into the buildings (walls) in their "court house" or "temple". Which rules were transported to Babylon also from the kingdom of Sumer and can be found on clay discs recently uncovered from digs in that area where Sumer was located. And note that also there was a later culture called "Sumerian" which is linked too but not representive of the original kingdom of Sumer. (sumer meaning "the land"). The symbol A represented the first number and the first letter. And the name employed for the "first Lord" (aka god) was "AN". And also they used the name "ANU" - which means "heavenly father" or "father in heaven" ( heaven being located someplace in the "sky" like the stars and the other planets are in the heavens).

Although ANU seldom if ever visited the earth (land) he did have a number of sons, daugters, which family did arrive to set up the kingdom of Sumer and who instructed Adam (meaning mankind) concerning how to serve the will of ANU. Those insturctions consituted the first "scripture", from which later scriptures were copied by scribes or created to imatate the original "books of knowledge", (made oddly enough out of clay tablets - in Sumer they would create a mold (made out of gold or whatever) and then they could print out many copies by pouring wet clay into the mold and then allowing the clay to dry (re: pottery). That was the first "printing press" - put into use some 32 thousand years ago. The clay discs were round and had words impressed on both sides. You would then turn the disc while reading it in a circular manner. Sumer was located in a place where oil was easy to get because it was above the surface and just below he surface of the gournd. The oil was used to for temperature contolled fires that could be used to cast gold - and other purposes like making breads. Sumer had about 7 cities close at hand and each city had a different puprose for being. Also the kingdom expanded with a number of "outposts" to gather other resources - Babylon for example was set up for farming, but mainly as a place where new genetic plants were being created, or genetic versions of wild plants. Many of the fruit trees orginated from that area which were designed such that they would provide food to eat. Olive, apple, fig, and other such trees - as well as grain crops (improved version of wild oats - etc.). Abraham was migrating to an area where certain trees were harvested for their wood. South Africa is where they gathered the gold (which for some reason was needed by ANU and his family (Lords). And so forth.

More later - perhaps... technosoul

[Isaiah]

Quote by: Athena I must argue the idea that men wrote out of pure imagination.

The apostle Peter would disagree with your assertion:

2 Peter 1:16-21 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"-- and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. {So} we have the prophetic word {made} more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is {a matter} of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Isaiah The apostle Peter would disagree with your assertion:

Hello, Isaiah. You're not, by any chance, the same Isaiah who used to attend the CNN/TIME boards 5 or 6 years ago, before it shut down, are you?

As to your post, quoting the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't cut a lot of weight with those of us not inclined to accept it as "the word of God". I could just as easily quote the Qur'an to prove the truth of the Qur'an, but I doubt you'd give it much consideration.

.