Atheists |vs| Theists - Some Thoughts On Improving Our Dialogues

[Prometheus]

I am as guilty as anyone on this forum, but with a little thought and (hopefully) objective analysis I think I have been able to put a finger on some of the issues and behaviors that cause our discussions to degrade so far.

I certainly don’t wish to point fingers in this discussion, especially since many of them would be pointed at myself. I hope we can all realize where we are personally at fault and try to make our discussions more meaningful.



I think the biggest problem we have is attaching an argument to a group of people. When someone puts forth an argument, it should be analyzed on it’s own merits, not on the merits of others who ascribe to it. The fact that Hitler was an atheist, and that the Christian inquisition tortured thousands should have no bearing on a discussion of the merits of a philosophy. All philosophies can be misapplied and twisted.

As a theist, I should be able to express a belief in Christ without having the inquisition brought up, just as an atheist should be able to talk about his/her beliefs without someone bringing up Hitler.

You cannot condemn a theist/atheist because of the actions of other ascribing to the same belief system. Many theists are authoritarian, castigating, and belligerent. Many atheists are blowhard, offensive and in-your-face. This however does not mean that a follower of either philosophy should labeled as such. All groups have vocal and visible members who shame the whole group.



It seems that on this forum any theistic/atheistic idea is met with fiery wrath from the other side of the debate. Often statements have no theistic/atheistic motive, and yet the other side takes offence and goes on a vendetta against the imagined allegation.

We should all be intellectually mature enough to discuss ideas objectively without worrying about the implications. I have brought up topics of discussion which were meant to be totally neutral, objective and informative, but some members read some kind of theistic/atheistic motive into a third degree implication and became very belligerent.

We all have our own personal biases, but in debate we need to admit them and try to see past them. It seems the atheists can’t intellectually discuss god issues – they merely scoff at the stupidity of even discussing god. While the theists are so offended by atheism that they can’t intellectually discuss it either – all they can do is say that the atheists are going to burn in hell. Both sides reduce their arguments to contention and repetitive dogmatic statements. This is not productive.

As a debater in college I am very used to debating both sides of an issue. I debate issues all the time that I do not agree with. Not only is it a mental exercise, but it forces you to truly analyze your own beliefs, and admit the faults in your own logic. Though I am a theist, I am on record on this forum for shooting down arguments “proving” god. I have critiqued bad arguments for the validity of the bible, even though I believe in it. I have disparaged intelligent design as unscientific even though I do believe that god had a hand in the earth’s creation. I have always been willing to argue both sides for the sake of keeping a rational valid argument. If you believe you are right, it is important to be right with the right argument. Even if you are right, your opinion has no more validity that the argument behind it.


I hope some of these thoughts can help us form more meaningful debates.

[Isaiah]

I heartily agree. Let us openly and respectfully discuss ideas without resorting to name-calling. I am thankful that there are so many persons here who are passionate about their ideas but we must turn down the nasty dial a notch or two. And let us stick to the issues.

[belverron]

Amen *shifty eyes*

[fedfem]

Hitler was not an atheist. Wherever did you get that? Although I personally believe he wasn't truly a Christian--he used the church. His theology was strange for sure but definitely not Atheist.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: fedfem Hitler was not an atheist. Wherever did you get that? Although I personally believe he wasn't truly a Christian--he used the church. His theology was strange for sure but definitely not Atheist.

I have heard him called an atheist, but I have't heard it from any authoritative source. You are probably right.

Whatever - it was just an example. Replace my hitler example with your favorite/most hated criticm of atheism.

[fedfem]

I agree that theists and atheists shouldn't attack one another, but this is a debate board and it is fun to take a strong position.

I don't think glaring insults do anything but break down the conversation. An occasional accusation of being a conspiracist or being illogical is fine--sometimes gets the volcano rumbling.(taken as a challenge by most to prove their assertation)

I think discussing religion and prostylizing are different though. Same for threads on evolution or intelligent design--science is not the same as closed-mindedness.

[Prometheus]

I agree that in a debate context, the concepts of atheism and theism are inherently antagonistic, but the proponants of those ideas do not have to be.

[Jack]

I suppose if the theists here can love the sinner but hate the sin, the least we atheists can do is love the religious while hating what religious influence is doing to our country and world.
Seriously, as I hope those of you who have PM'd me can attest, I can be very reasonable on the issues raised here. Having been a theist, I can understand your motives and beliefs, and I have no real interest in or hope of disuading you from your faith. While I believe in vigorously expounding on my positions on the issues, I don't see a need to be rude or obnoxious doing it. Having said that, I confess to being fallable, so when I fail to uphold my own standards, please excuse me in advance. Sometimes someone says something that's just too, too, whatever...to let it pass without a snide comment.

[rez]

Quote by: Prometheus I have heard him called an atheist, but I have't heard it from any authoritative source. You are probably right. Whatever - it was just an example. Replace my hitler example with your favorite/most hated criticm of atheism.

well here is a thread topic.."Who criticizes atheism?"

the only athiest critic I heard, was babbling on about "why we dont kill people"..I guess that would be my favorite criticism.


Sorry Prometheus, I am not compromising my sanity/reality with "debate" about magical beings.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: rez So all the athiest vs theist debate can basically be summed up atheist: you're crazy theist: no I am not There is nothing you can discredit an athiest for....bring it on....

Yet another block to intellegent debate... the "big dick" complex.

[Jack]

Or sometimes,
"God loves you"
"I don't believe in god"
"That's OK, god loves you anyway"
"Arrgggg"

[rez]

Quote by: Prometheus Yet another block to intellegent debate... the "big dick" complex.

hahhaha the funny thing is....it all comes down to this....

I am a big dick because I do not believe in fairy tales.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: rez well here is a thread topic.."Who criticizes atheism?" the only athiest critic I heard, was babbling on about "why we dont kill people"..I guess that would be my favorite criticism. Sorry Prometheus, I am not compromising my sanity/reality with "debate" about magical beings.

That was never meant as a criticism!

This is what I was talking about here:

It seems that on this forum any theistic/atheistic idea is met with fiery wrath from the other side of the debate. Often statements have no theistic/atheistic motive, and yet the other side takes offence and goes on a vendetta against the imagined allegation.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: rez hahhaha the funny thing is....it all comes down to this.... I am a big dick because I do not believe in fairy tales.

It has nothing to do with "fairy tails" - but everything to do with a cocky and arrogant attitide. Stateing your own belief and then daring others to challenge it is no way to learn anything,

[rez]

Quote by: Prometheus It has nothing to do with "fairy tails" - but everything to do with a cocky and arrogant attitide. Stateing your own belief and then daring others to challenge it is no way to learn anything,

haha what is my belief? ahahahha


What is there to learn? You believe in God....something that only exists in your head. Keep it there...please....debate over.

[Jack]

debate over

In that case, I guess there's no need for any of us to be here.
Would the last one out please turn off the lights?

[Flip Jackson]

Rez, please show some respect. Prometheus can be a butt sometimes, (sorry buddy). I know, I lived next to the guy for about a year. But he has a lot of good points especially in this thread.

I don't know what you are trying to prove. Saying that a theist is wrong because belief in the supernatural seems like a fairy tail to you is no way to debate. Everyone else seemed to agree that everyone needed to be a bit more considerate, except for you who seemed to think this was a great chance to stir things up.

Theists have the right to say what they belive and why. Telling them to keep it in their head is rude, assuming, and has no place in a debate where we are here to discuss philosophy and religion. If you don't like religion, then you don't have to go to religious threads and read what others have written.

All anyone asks here is respect. No one can expect you to agree or conform, but treat people as if they are people.

[Jack]

This attitude reminds me of why I hated having atheism represented for so many years by a person like Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Even I couldn't stand her, though I agreed with many of her statements. But she was just so obnoxious, so over-the-top smug and self-righteous that I cringed every time she made the news or appeared in public.
We're still trying to live down the image many theists have of her as a typical atheist. Much like having Jim Baker as the poster boy for all theists.

[rez]

How big is the universe? You want to debate one possibility of why you exist? one possibility is all we are talking about. There is no need for "respect" or "debate" because it is crazy to think of just one possibility of why you and I exist.

Do you follow me? There are more possible reasons as to why you and I exist and you want to just focus on one 2000 year old explaination?

We could exist for negative purposes ya know....the universe could of been created by evil. I could say pink elephants float around and it would have the same leverage as saying "there is one god the father almighty, creater of heaven and earth".

The point is, I do not know why I exist nor do you. The universe is big and you are just one asshole with an opinion. even 1 billon followers is no match for how big the universe is. I can make up endless amount of shit off the top of my head and it would have the same validity as "there is one god the father almighty".

It is not rude to keep your beliefs to yourself. It avoids people pushing theirs on to you.....

Get it?

[Jack]

There are two things you can do with your beliefs in a debate forum like this; you can keep them to yourself, in which case you have no reason to be here; or you can share them and allow others to comment on them from their point-of-view. If you believe the Earth is carried on the back of elephants, we can discuss that. If you don't bring it up, we can't.
It's each member's right to decide what to share and what not to. It's no one else's right to make that decision for them.

Got it?