Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Cephus · Jul 7, 2005, 11:58 am

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Quote by: Prometheus

I think the biggest problem we have is attaching an argument to a group of people. When someone puts forth an argument, it should be analyzed on it’s own merits, not on the merits of others who ascribe to it. The fact that Hitler was an atheist, and that the Christian inquisition tortured thousands should have no bearing on a discussion of the merits of a philosophy. All philosophies can be misapplied and twisted.

Except for the fact that Hitler was a Christian, of course.

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We should all be intellectually mature enough to discuss ideas objectively without worrying about the implications. I have brought up topics of discussion which were meant to be totally neutral, objective and informative, but some members read some kind of theistic/atheistic motive into a third degree implication and became very belligerent.

The biggest problem that I have with theists is that you really can't debate with them. You're right, people should be intellectually mature to discuss ideas objectively, but objectivity is about the farthest thing from the minds of most theists. Most come to the table supremely convinced that they are right and that nothing will ever convince them otherwise. They are unable to conceive of the possibility that their heartfelt beliefs might be wrong. They assume, a priori that God exists, the Bible is perfect and their beliefs are unchallengable, and when any of that is called into question, they freak out.

How do you have a debate on the existence of God if the only thing one side has is the supreme, unchallengable belief that God is real, so there?

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We all have our own personal biases, but in debate we need to admit them and try to see past them. It seems the atheists can’t intellectually discuss god issues – they merely scoff at the stupidity of even discussing god. While the theists are so offended by atheism that they can’t intellectually discuss it either – all they can do is say that the atheists are going to burn in hell. Both sides reduce their arguments to contention and repetitive dogmatic statements. This is not productive.

Funny, I'd say that's what theists do. Theists demand God is real, cannot come up with logical or rational reasons to think so, and clench their eyes shut whenever someone suggests otherwise. You are right about the 'burn in hell' thing, certainly I've been condemned there more times than I can remember in the last couple decades.

If we're going to debate religious issues, neither side can assume that their position is unassailable and unchallengable. If they do, then no debate is possible.

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 12:06 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

Stay out of our threads?

What is this "our threads" business? There is a private forum now for the supernaturalists. That is where you should put your threads. If you place your threads in the public forums then they are open to all.

Starboy

Cephus · Jul 7, 2005, 12:06 pm

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Quote by: Sonart

Yeah, right. Love your neighbor, as long as they are not atheist, gay, Jewish and any other non-Christian.

Of course. Love your neighbor so long as they're exactly like you. Or if you're a Catholic priest, you can really love your neighbor.

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 12:34 pm

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Quote by: Starboy

What is this "our threads" business? There is a private forum now for the supernaturalists. That is where you should put your threads. If you place your threads in the public forums then they are open to all.

Starboy

read the comment in context - you know what that statement was adressing

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 12:37 pm

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Quote by: Cephus

Except for the fact that Hitler was a Christian, of course.

I've already adressed that. Read the rest of this thread.

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Most come to the table supremely convinced that they are right and that nothing will ever convince them otherwise. They are unable to conceive of the possibility that their heartfelt beliefs might be wrong. They assume, a priori that God exists, the Bible is perfect and their beliefs are unchallengable, and when any of that is called into question, they freak out.

I have done none of this and you are still a bitch to me. In fact, I think I have criticized more arguments *for* god than I have against. Which is way more of a concession then you have *ever* been willing to make.

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How do you have a debate on the existence of God if the only thing one side has is the supreme, unchallengable belief that God is real, so there?

Funny, I'd say that's what theists do. Theists demand God is real, cannot come up with logical or rational reasons to think so, and clench their eyes shut whenever someone suggests otherwise. You are right about the 'burn in hell' thing, certainly I've been condemned there more times than I can remember in the last couple decades.

I was adresing these comments at both parties. The whole post was adressed to both theists and atheists. Surely you cant claim that atheists demonstrate none of these traits as well.

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If we're going to debate religious issues, neither side can assume that their position is unassailable and unchallengable. If they do, then no debate is possible.

Isn't this what I've been harping for the last month? Everyone should criticize thier own ideas.

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 12:50 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

read the comment in context - you know what that statement was adressing

I read it. Your advice to rez was to "Stay out of our threads?" What is it supposed to mean? Post on "our" threads?

Starboy

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 12:53 pm

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Quote by: Starboy

I read it. Your advice to rez was to "Stay out of our threads?" What is it supposed to mean? Post on "our" threads?

Starboy

"our" is anyone, theist or not, who wants to discuss religious topics in an intellectual manner. There are plenty of atheists on this forum who fit this catagory. Coming in, and saying thread is silly and stupid is not an intellectual way to discuss anything.

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 12:55 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

"our" is anyone, theist or not, who wants to discuss religious topics in an intellectual manner. There are plenty of atheists on this forum who fit this catagory. Coming in, and saying thread is silly and stupid is not an intellectual way to discuss anything.

Please point out where rez was doing that,

Starboy

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 01:04 pm

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rez:
Sorry Prometheus, I am not compromising my sanity/reality with "debate" about magical beings.

Keep it there...please....debate over.

There is no need for "respect" or "debate"

There is no kind of compromise to be reached between the two. follow?

intellectually discuss god issues? are you kidding?

Atheists |vs| Theists - Some Thoughts On Improving Our Dialogues
Atheists dont need to...I could careless if you dont follow logic and reason...

thats where

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 01:09 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

thats where

Rez stated that he didn't want to discuss someone's take on the supernatural. Religious topics certainly span more territory than that. But even if he was doing as you say he was, to what end are you adding to the civility of debate by suggesting that he stay out "our" threads? If you don't wish to debate with him on whatever tems he is willing then just place him on your ignore list.

Starboy

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 01:15 pm

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Quote by: Starboy

Rez stated that he didn't want to discuss someone's take on the supernatural.
Starboy

Then what is he doing in a thread about how atheists ("non-supernaturalists") and theists ("supernaturalists") can improve thier diologues?

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 01:19 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

Then what is he doing in a thread about how atheists ("non-supernaturalists") and theists ("supernaturalists") can improve thier diologues?

I can't speak for rez but he is saying that as long as the supernaturalists will refrain on insisting on the reality of their supernatural constructs then other discussion involving religion can take place. And of course supernaturalists and naturalists can always discuss supernatural religion in the purely natural context. The same as any supernaturalist is able to discuss other supernatural religions that they do not happen to believe in. When it comes to all the supernatural religions that a particular supernaturalists does not believe in, as far as beliefs about those religions go, both the atheist and the theist hold common opinions.

Starboy

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 01:21 pm

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Quote by: Starboy

I can't speak for rez

You said it. Shut up.

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 01:26 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

You said it. Shut up.

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I hope some of these thoughts can help us form more meaningful debates.

Why should anyone take your seriously?

Starboy

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 01:33 pm

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Quote by: Starboy

Why should anyone take your seriously?

Starboy

You have never been interested in debate. You stick dogmatically to your party line and refuse to consider anything outside of how you have already decided the world is. You have stated same explicitly. Because of this, you can never be involved in a meaningful debate in religon - so there is only one thing for you to do - stay out and shut up.

My problem with has never been the ideas you advocate. My negative responce to you is not because of the philosophy you put forth, and is therefore outside the realm of this thread.

**Jack** · Jul 7, 2005, 01:39 pm

I'd sure hate to see another thread dissolve into name calling and off-topic comments. Can't we get back to the topic, or if we've exhausted it, just let it die without all this bickering? Or are you two on-topic, and admitting that theists and atheists can't maintain civil discourse?

Prometheus · Jul 7, 2005, 01:50 pm

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Quote by: Isherwood

I'd sure hate to see another thread dissolve into name calling and off-topic comments. Can't we get back to the topic, or if we've exhausted it, just let it die without all this bickering? Or are you two on-topic, and admitting that theists and atheists can't maintain civil discourse?

Like I said above - our bickering is not a theist/atheist debate at all. It is simply me calling out Starboy for what he is.

But I agree - this thread is not the place.

Starboy · Jul 7, 2005, 01:56 pm

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Quote by: Isherwood

I'd sure hate to see another thread dissolve into name calling and off-topic comments. Can't we get back to the topic, or if we've exhausted it, just let it die without all this bickering? Or are you two on-topic, and admitting that theists and atheists can't maintain civil discourse?

I think it is funny that the theist that called for civil debate can't be civil.

Starboy

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 7, 2005, 02:10 pm

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Quote by: James

I feel like layin out some atheists, myself.:)...sometimes!

I feel like being laid by female atheists (and theists).

Chalk · Jul 7, 2005, 02:18 pm

People are like this. We all like to be right, but obviously we can't all be right without co..com..compromise? What a strange word.

I'm willing to agree to disagree with people who think different to me and get on with life. I don't know if it's a cultural difference thing, but most people I know over in the UK are laid back and not too bothered about religion. This may be because my age group takes things with a pinch of salt, but the only things that piss me off are sexist, racist people. Granted they are the scum of the earth and I should probably just blank them, but I think people are designed to defend themselves- be it physically or their own personal views.

Without opposing views there would be no debate- if we all thought in the same way, we'd get along fine as there would be no grey areas. But I doubt it would make for an interesting world. I like expressing my opinions, but I excpect people to find fault with what I say to boost themselves up. So what? I don't believe in religion, for many reasons, but others do. Fine by me.

Jul 7, 2005, 01:39 pm	#76 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,786	I'd sure hate to see another thread dissolve into name calling and off-topic comments. Can't we get back to the topic, or if we've exhausted it, just let it die without all this bickering? Or are you two on-topic, and admitting that theists and atheists can't maintain civil discourse? The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Jul 7, 2005, 02:18 pm	#80 (permalink) (top)
Chalk Sitting on the fence Location: UK Posts: 169	People are like this. We all like to be right, but obviously we can't all be right without co..com..compromise? What a strange word. I'm willing to agree to disagree with people who think different to me and get on with life. I don't know if it's a cultural difference thing, but most people I know over in the UK are laid back and not too bothered about religion. This may be because my age group takes things with a pinch of salt, but the only things that piss me off are sexist, racist people. Granted they are the scum of the earth and I should probably just blank them, but I think people are designed to defend themselves- be it physically or their own personal views. Without opposing views there would be no debate- if we all thought in the same way, we'd get along fine as there would be no grey areas. But I doubt it would make for an interesting world. I like expressing my opinions, but I excpect people to find fault with what I say to boost themselves up. So what? I don't believe in religion, for many reasons, but others do. Fine by me.