Question to Atheists

[Starboy]

I think that the major factor that keeps us from killing one another is empathy. We are born to be naturally empathetic. People who cannot feel empathy for their fellow human are broken. A great deal of what goes on in wartime is demonization of the enemy. The goal is to make soldiers see the enemy as something less than human and thus defeat their natural tendency to empathize.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

think that the major factor that keeps us from killing one another is empathy. We are born to be naturally empathetic. People who cannot feel empathy for their fellow human are broken

note; ( I agree in principle with Starboy, except maybe with the order or importance of the factors.)

What keeps us from wanton murder?…nothing,we do it in spades every fraction of a second . From abortion, to wars, to crimes of passion. However we do have a natural deterrent to the act of killing. It might be listed as follows (in order of importance.)

1... learned behavior

2... Built in or designed compassion by an intelligent designer (read god or GID)

3.. Adaptive evolution (intra species)

4... Other factors.

Give me 100% control of any of the first three and I could produce a murderous fool that would oblige pol pot to look like a very good boy, or a man (or woman) that would resemble Jesus, in his/her life, before some nut kills him/her for thier goodness.

mb

[Sonart]

Quote by: MerlinsByte 3.. Adaptive evolution (intra species)

How about adaptive evolution based on self interest? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." We refrain from lying, stealing and killing because we don't want others doing those things to us, so we make a tacit social agreement... you don't do these things to me and I'll agree not to do them to you.

This may be a lead to a new thread, but TIME magazine came out with an amazing article this week, Honor Among Beasts. The story reports on research that altruism, empathy and a sense of fair play are not limited to human beings but is present, in perhaps less sophisticated ways, among higher animals... most observably in dogs (to which I can attest)

Which leads to the question summed up at the end of the article.... is there an evolutionary basis for ethics and morality, and is ethics and morality not unique to humans but rather a continuation of something already evolving in the animal world.

--"But while animals may not possess true ethics or morality, Bekoff, De Waal and a growing number of their colleagues think fairness and cooperation may be the forerunners of those qualities, just as the apelike brain of our distant ancestor Lucy was the forerunner of our own, much more sophisticated minds. After all, Lucy was no Einstein—but without her, the leap from the tiny brains of primitive mammals to the subtle intelligence of an Einstein could never have occurred."--

Some of the more interesting hilites from the story...

--"In short, Bekoff was able to show -- after at least a decade of painstaking observation and analysis -- that canine play is actually a complex social interaction in which the participants constantly signal their intentions and check to make sure their behavior is correctly interpreted. Dogs that cheat -- promising a playful bite but delivering a harsh one, for example -- tend to be ostracized.

That understanding is nothing short of revolutionary. Only a decade or so ago, scientists were arguing vigorously over whether animals had emotions: just because a dog looks sad or a chimp appears to be embarrassed doesn't mean it really is, the skeptics said. That argument is pretty much over. The idea of animal emotion is now accepted as part of mainstream biology. And thanks to Bekoff and other researchers, ethologists are also starting to accept the once radical idea that some animals--primarily the social ones such as dogs, chimps, hyenas, monkeys, dolphins, birds and even rats--possess not just raw emotions but also subtler and more sophisticated mental states, including envy, empathy, altruism and a sense of fairness. "They have the ingredients we use for morality,"--

One interesting example they brought up, and which they stated was not limited just to dogs, is something I observe constantly in dogs. During play, an older, bigger or stronger dog will beat up on a younger or smaller dog. Every so often, however, the larger dog will flop to the ground and allow the younger or smaller dog to "win" -- to beat up and chew on them for a while. The theorized reason being that such fair play is based on self interest. Allowing the smaller dog to win insures their willingness to play in the future.

--"That doesn't mean animals necessarily have a fully developed moral or ethical sense. "I don't say dogs are fair the way you and I are fair, or have the same moral systems," says Bekoff. But it does mean that -- just as with so many other attributes once considered unique to humans, including toolmaking and language -- animals have at least rudimentary versions of what we call morality. That would conform to Darwin's ideas of evolution, and indeed, Darwin himself was convinced this must be true. "It would be bad evolutionary biology," says Bekoff, "to assume that moral behavior just pops on the scene only with us."--

Quote by: MerlinsByte What keeps us from wanton murder?…nothing,we do it in spades every fraction of a second. From abortion, to wars, to crimes of passion.

While this may seem to be the case from constant headlines, in proportion to the human population it's an obvious anomoly. And abortion, despite the florid rhetoric of opponents, can be considered a moral decision... ending the life of a potential human in order to spare future suffering as an unwanted child.

.

[Jack]

That's some fascinating stuff, Sonart. And as one who has spent years around animals of all types, I agree that I've seen evidence of this, too. I'll have to read the full article. Simple moral codes could indeed "evolve" into more complex ones to keep up with our more complex societies. This in a very interesting line of thought

[asterix404]

HAHA I Am entering this kinda late but I have actuilly read every post here. First off I am an athiest, or very close to one. Buhda is not a proxy god... I don't think anyone worships any buhda but try to be like he was, that is the essence of Buhdism. You want to be mindful of your being and how it interacts with the world. In Japan you can leave a running laptop on the bussest intersections of tokyo and no one will touch it. The funny thing is... I am an open misanthrope. I don't put any value on human life. I don't see any value on human life... I don't see anyone placing any value ever. Religous leaders are fools... In the bush election where were the leaders of faith saying that everyone should vote for him becasue hes pro life while knowing that he started 2 wars and killed people... and of course knowing his record for the death penilty in Texas. How much does anyone care about human life? We see rape murder death, mass killing, mass displacement, epademics such as AIDs and small pox, chemical weapons.. common... we want to die. But we don't want to die alone. I have whitnessed people use religon to suport racial profiling, murder and even rape. How can we possibly forget the Crusaids that are so... misinterpreted. England sent people over there under the popes orders to kill everyone. Nice interpretation of the basis for western religon. SO no god... or if there is a god... it doesn't care about how we treat each other and what we do... so what is there?

The law is stupid... if I have to kill to eat I will kill. If someone is atacking me I will kill that person and I will not think twice about it. I however don't run around killing people becasue I have a pang where they may actuilly do something to benefit me. It's horrable and selfish and just about everything bad... however if I killed someone and did not need to it would weight on my conscience. I care about bettering myself and I know when I do something wrong. It's the "gut" fealings that you get when you know you have done something you shoudln't have. It's not remorse... you can have remorse and still not feal bad.... take a loved one dieing. If you didn't do something that you wanted to do... you feal horrable about it, but you didn't feal bad before the person died. Basicly... I get morles from things that I do and I try to do good things. It's not cuz of a diety but becasue I want to better myself personally.

[MerlinsByte]

How about adaptive evolution based on self interest?

Yes, I think you are right. Mutually beneficial adaptive behavior is evident in most higher mammals (and I would argue even insects)

In fact, I agree with all of your response concerning socially adaptive evolution response. It is also my belief that the genetic code is modified by the catalyst of socially mutual beneficial behavior therefore by natural selection. This is so obvious that someone has to of been obliged to write a doctoral dissertation or some other publication on the subject. No, not darwin…(it was a funny).

This "MBAB" may not be as complex as ours(?) but it is beautiful to observe. (I have 2 live in dogs a soulful male basset and a smart female boxer pit mix. I know it's a hell of a mix but the female keeps the basset cheered up in more ways that one.

And abortion, despite the florid rhetoric of opponents, can be considered a moral decision... ending the life of a potential human in order to spare future suffering as an unwanted child.

Mb writes...I think we should ask the unwanted child when he/she is 25 if the suffering is so intense that they want to die. I think the high percentage would want to live. And of course there is also the question of when one is self aware....

hey Im 50 and potentially I will be 51 in about a month..... ; } >

[Kuldeep]

[quote=Prometheus]

"why not murder people?"

BECAUSE, SIR, YOU DO NOT WANT PEOPLE SHOULD MURDER YOU!!!!!!!!!!!It

What keeps you from killing?[/

Very simple Sir, your own conscious feeling (CONSCIENCE) HOLDS YOU !!!!!!!! Since, It tells you again and again, killing is bad. Bad is something which, you do not want others should do to you e.g. KILL YOU, SO KILLING IS BAD!!!

[MerlinsByte]

To "kuldeep"

I have been taught that Hindu thought distinguishes itself by strongly encouraging tolerance for different beliefs since temporal systems cannot claim sole understanding of the one transcendental Truth. For some reason this doesnt sound like you. I've been accused of trashing my religion (open theist christian) so before I accuse you of the same thing....

Please PM me and and tell me a little more about your religion?

mb

[MerlinsByte]

By asterrix....Buhda is not a proxy god..

mb writes....wrong

By asterrix....In Japan you can leave a running laptop on the bussest intersections of tokyo and no one will touch it

mb writes....Oh! Is this the same Japan and Tokyo that practices institutional racism regularly , and where the Sars outbreak occurred? Is it the same Tokyo where .rape and violent porn are becomoing common? it this the same Tokyo that.."Nationwide crime stats have risen for the past seven consecutive years," says a police ... Crime in Tokyo is getting really bad-let's move to Detroit!" ... all goverments are bad. Its just a matter of degrees of how bad they are.

I am an open misanthrope. I don't put any value on human life. I don't see any value on human life..

mb writes...All human life has value. All insect life has value. All the virus proto life has value. Even your life has value.

I have whitnessed people use religon to suport racial profiling, murder and even rape. How can we possibly forget the Crusaids that are so... misinterpreted. England sent people over there under the popes orders to kill everyone. Nice interpretation of the basis for western religon.

mb....That is a perversion of gods word and intent. The person committing the crime bears the responsibility not God. I beg to differ with your interpretation of history. Greed and sin has caused the most death.

The law is stupid... if I have to kill to eat I will kill. If someone is atacking me I will kill that person and I will not think twice about it.

I agree with you. Mans law isn't the final authority.Rejecting the law of the land sets a dangerous precedent for ones self. And it of course has consequences. When I engage in civil disobedience I am prepared to pay the price. Both spiritually and temporally.

I hope you are talking about hunting when you say you will kill to eat, (not strong arm theft) , I propose that most of us kills to eat. We just pay someone to do the dirty work of a slaughter house for us.

SO no god... or if there is a god... it doesn't care about how we treat each other and what we do... so what is there?

mb writes...God expects us to use the faculties and our self awareness to change this universe with love before we destroy it and everything in it by sin. There would be no need for a God if we were perfect because we would be God.

It's the "gut" fealings that you get when you know you have done something you shoudln't have

mb writes...Where does that Gut feeling come from and how did you know it was wrong? Who is speaking to you?

It's not cuz of a diety but becasue I want to better myself personally.

mb...that is a nobel way of life, thanks for being you.







http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content...id=234&page=13

[fedfem]

Merlin, it sounds like you don't much understand Buddhism either. With all due respect, you have a fundamental christian view of every religion you supposedly dabbled in as well as your so called stint as an atheist.

[Sonart]

Quote by: MerlinsByte I think we should ask the unwanted child when he/she is 25 if the suffering is so intense that they want to die. I think the high percentage would want to live. And of course there is also the question of when one is self aware....

Exactly. This sort of statement is as absurd as the old saw, "How would you feel if YOUR mother had decided to abort you?" Well obviously, since I would not exist, I wouldn't have much of an opinion one way or the other. Likewise, asking someone who has existed for 25 years if they would prefer dying to living, regardless of their circumstances, is equally meaningless. Having said that, I suspect there are indeed people around who wish they'd never been born.

A while back I heard some talking head quote from a study that suggested that current drops in juvenile crime were, at least in part, attributable to legalized abortion. I've been unable to find that study, so I'll simply have to leave it that such a statement was made and, at least at the time, uncontested.

Quote by: MerlinsByte Oh! Is this the same Japan and Tokyo that practices institutional racism regularly , and where the Sars outbreak occurred?

Yep. I was in Tokyo several years back, and we were rather astounded at the civility. Bicycles and scooters left unlocked on the sidewalks. We left wallets in stores and returned to find them untouched. Yes, Japan is a racist society, but theirs is a 3,000 yr old culture. Ours is a mere 225 years old and based on the pluralism of a society built by immigrants.

And what does SARS have to do with anything?

.

[MerlinsByte]

by fedfem.. Merlin, it sounds like you don't much understand Buddhism either. With all due respect, you have a fundamental christian view of every religion you supposedly dabbled in as well as your so called stint as an atheist.

Merlin writes...Thanks for you observation and opinion fedfem. You didn't exactly wear out your keypad explaining why you came to this postion,so feel free to expound to make your case.

Yes, I agree that I view everything from a Christian open theist glass. It is called a paradigm!
Every individual on earth has his/her own tint of glass. My glass insn't illegally tinted so dark that I cannot see oncoming traffic though.

You dont know me really, so I won't take your response as an insult to my honesty, as some here have openly questioned. Hey one can much living in 51 years...and it feels times I have done too much living with a body that was designed for a shorter haul....; } >

b

[MerlinsByte]

By the honorable sonart…Exactly. This sort of statement is as absurd as the old saw, "How would you feel if YOUR mother had decided to abort you?"

Merlin writes...It is a sharp old saw, because it cuts. So, by your response I will keep it (but maybe refine and sharpen it a bit more)

And what does SARS have to do with anything?

Merlin writes...OOPS! My bad…I wish I could blame it on AOL spell check, I meant to type in serin gas (spelling might not be correct)…I don’t need to clarify this do I? I was pointing out to the individual who was trying to deify Japans (government?) they are just a different degree of evil ole’ sinful government.

mb me

[Sonart]

Merlin writes...It is a sharp old saw, because it cuts. So, by your response I will keep it (but maybe refine and sharpen it a bit more)

No it doesn't. It doesn't cut anything... it's meaningless. How would I feel if my mother had had an abortion? I wouldn't feel a damn thing.

I meant to type in serin gas (spelling might not be correct)…I don’t need to clarify this do I? I was pointing out to the individual who was trying to deify Japans (government?) they are just a different degree of evil ole’ sinful government.

It's sarin gas. And beg pardon? Are you suggesting that a few crazy fanatics like Aum Shin Rikyo cancels out the overall benevolance of modern Japanese society? Because if you are, I could bring up a slew of examples that, by your apparent standard, paints America as hell on earth.

.

[MerlinsByte]

It's sarin gas. And beg pardon? Are you suggesting that a few crazy fanatics like Aum Shin Rikyo cancels out the overall benevolance of modern Japanese society? Because if you are, I could bring up a slew of examples that, by your apparent standard, paints America as hell on earth

The overall benevolence of modern Japanese society is directly attributable to the united states. For every example you can give me I can give you 10 in japans history.see rape on nanking or read about the treatment of American POWs in WW2 , and you wouldn't blame Americas evil on a few wayward politicos would you?

You augment is hollow and empty, and without merit.


http://www.tribo.org/nanking/ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,one of 43,450 hits

[MerlinsByte]

No it doesn't. It doesn't cut anything... it's meaningless. How would I feel if my mother had had an abortion? I wouldn't feel a damn thing.

merlin writes...No you wouldnt and you would not be here now...hey maybe that would of been one good abortion out of the millions of other murders....just kidding sonart, even you are a lamb of god.

mb

[asterix404]

Okay then let me explain to you something since mb you didn't understand me the first time. I am a buhdist athiest. I don't belielve in god.... period... or if there is a god he/she/it/ (multiples of there of) hates us beyond reason. Okay I have been a praticing buhdist for about 2 years now... and a pagan since I was 14 so about 7 years... YOU DON'T WORSHIP BUHDA! There is nothing to worship... it's like worshiping confusus... you don't do it... you respect them highly realize that just about everything is the same and realated. Buhdism is all about similarities... finding yourself and making peace with the whole world as well as learning patience and humility. I am not a very good buhdist yet. You do not goto a chruch of any form... you don't have a real book to folow... you explor yourself and through that you become enlightened and not bothered by anything physical or emotional and walk the world at peace in any situation.

You assume I hear voices... how about I hear about 3... sinec 3 is something that seems to be agreed upon and my pagan buds call it these: Inner child (Love shiny objects and things that feal really good... IE sex and bright paint), Self (physical logician, I may have this one wrong but this is how I thought of it), higher self/higher being (Conscience, sub conousness, that pang that you get when you are doing something right... interacts with EVERYTHING around you literally if you let it... such as, rocks trees, people). My higher being generally tells me what is right or wrong, and lets me predict events. This does not happen with everyone.

Okay... Japan, yes it does have some ultra fucked up people and yes it is an extreamly ridgid society that does express sex very much and thus... you get a lot of pent up really fucked up desires. However let me say that american sodmay bondage, S&M, snuf, ultra fucked up sex acts... yea they happen here to. Walk into any porno shop and ask for a rack cufs and anything that will inflict pain... and in fact a lot of christians buy this stuff becasue they are kinda stuck up most of the time when it comes to talking about sex. So lets leave japan be... shall we? Since every country and every culture and almost every religon has some ultra fucked up people who do ultra fucked up things to have an orgasm.

I was serious about the devaluation of life... saying that it's a sin is foolish since you didn't do your history. THE POPE IE the dude who sais if it's a sin or not... at least up until luther, gave the okay for some of the most barbaric acts in the history of man such as the 30 years war... the 100 years war, the spanish inquisition, and of coruse my favorite the crusaids. In fact he ordered kings to do it or else go directly to hell. Now tell me anywhere in the bible does it say that thou shalt ridth thy man who does not worship the only true christian god? Oaky so about the whole histroy thing... shall I even mention the cathoic curch... the surfs who spent all of their money for a cathedral? All if the blood and voilence and evilness that was spread by your book? Now Lets not even talk about if the interpretation was okay or how thats changed since it honestly doesn't matter. It's how it is read now and how it is not utopianly read. I have herd people use racism based from the bible. I have herd people say that it's okay to hate becasue it's in the bibile that you can. I have herd... oh hell.. that I can steal from a guy when he is preaching and he can't do anything but when he is not he can kill me for taking his stuff.... now.. tell me... whats the difference between hell... preaching gods word and not preaching gods word? See... I wouldn't ever kill someone for taking my stuff... personally I don't have much that is worth taking and most of it I could get back. Now this guy and team of guys preaching the bible... said it was okay to defend yourself and even kill... to pretect your stuff. Now I may be looking through the glasses of an uneducated fucktard when talking about christianty but I am certain I know a lot more then you give me credit for.

As far as killing goes.. hoensltly... if I don't know you and you serve very little purpose except to harm me metially or physically, i'll kill ya. If I am starving and you have food and refuse to give me any I will kill you... literally... I will find a way. Trust me... human life isn't worth jack shit. Now animal life is. If anyone harms a kitty I will wish death upon that person. I love cats I find that they are inocent creatures and if fact I feal this way about anything that doesn't kill it's own species... thats preety much everything but humans. We want to die... we have such a morbid facination with death. Let me explain... I drive on a high way I see a mini cut off a semi and almost get slamed into. NOW! I ask you how much did that mini value it's life? Now if that mini didn't value it's life... why should I? I now value my own life and I expect others to because I do... I help people out when they need it and I expect the same from other people but I didn't help others I woudln't expect any. It's almost pure logic and it's beutiful. I hope this answes some of your questions.

[MerlinsByte]

When one thinks of 'holy wars' waged with the approval of religion, religions like Christianity and Islam come to mind, not Eastern religions which appear more peaceful. Buddhism is thought of as focused on the personal development of peace and harmony. Most don't realize the extent of Zen Buddhism's complicity with the Japanese war machine and the horrors it unleashed on Southeast Asia. So It would behoove you to understand the history of any religion or government, even your own.


Buddhism complies with the definition of religion. Buddha is not the object of worship but is a teacher thru whom you become closer to becoming one with God! The Buddha statues, golden Buddhas, etc., are a representation of this desire and as such represent a pseudo idol God. Or a proxy God.

As for Christianity you seem not to understand the teachings of Jesus. Show me where the christ advocates murder killing or evil? Man perverts teachings of all religious leaders. Don't kill the messenger! Help the poor fools (lost ones and sinners, read you and I) that are too weak to apply the all teachings of jesus or buddha or any other god.) I understand your anger and pain. I have the same anger and pain. Its up to all of us to accept one another and live in peace.

mb

[Sgt. Rock]

Quote by: Prometheus I am really not trying to criticize the atheist philosophy here - I am just curious about that world view. My question is simply - "why not murder people?" It seems to me, that there is not reason to keep any kind of law if you can get away with it if you are an atheist. Lets say that you could gain a great deal of money from killing someone, and are garenteed not to get caught. What keeps you from killing?

Your conclusion to your premise dosen't follow. Although I am not an atheist I think you can not have faith in God and still have acceptance of social morals such as not killing someone.

[Savant]

Quote by: Sgt. Rock Your conclusion to your premise dosen't follow. Although I am not an atheist I think you can not have faith in God and still have acceptance of social morals such as not killing someone.

Pfff, shows what you know, Christians INVENTED not-murduring.

/end sarcasm