Question to Atheists

[MerlinsByte]

"Secular atheist" is an oxymoron.

The reason I say secular atheist is Starboy. He takes offense at the term secular and contends that he is atheist not secular. So to avoid offending anyone else's tender under belly I combined the terms, use it to keep the rhetoric down.

There is no such thing as the "atheist faith". I place no special value on human life; there's a difference.

I feel that atheism is a religion akin to some eastern religions. What I mean is that it is a deity-less religious belief.

I posted (in a response to the thread "Is Materialism still immoral?") that a moral code is an subjective abstract concept that each individual must decide on themselves.

I do feel that religious people have much more empathy and compassion to their fellow mans inhumanity to man and various situations than atheists, or seculars, or secular atheists do. Sorry if you all do not agree.

And as far as "judgment" goes that too is up to you. Judge yourself, to thy own self be true. Your inner voice will tell you right from wrong. This voice is pure and true when first spoke. Karma is another “natural” process.

So you really do reap what you sow in this life. Every action has a consequence. Every thought effects the universe.

As for the afterlife I feel that "Judgment" will not exist as we know it. ; } >.







mb

[MerlinsByte]

by FF... Bunk--Atheists treasure human life since they know a human life is only here for a short time. People in prison mostly convert to get the special privileges provided to Christians by the "ministries"(some--Chuck Colson types)

Bunk did you say BUNK? …oh the pain ….oh the hurt…ok I am over it

Who knows, Atheists may have it right. I doubt it but hey, I have been wr…wron….Ahhhh’ , I have made a bad decision with the facts at hand before.

I will trust the combined 100,000 years of history and pre history and weigh in on the side of the god thing or the GID thing.

Ms fed , have you been in prison or jail? Do you personally know anyone converted ? I do. So I am not impressed by you off the cuff remark about Mr. Colson. There are many bad examples of any program and many success stories. I would support prison evangelical religious missions, if even “only” one soul were changed from evil to good.

But please elaborate if you want to make a point, one-liners don’t substantiate anything, except perhaps laziness.

mb

[Sonart]

Quote by: Prometheus It seems to me, that there is not reason to keep any kind of law if you can get away with it if you are an atheist. Lets say that you could gain a great deal of money from killing someone, and are garenteed not to get caught. What keeps you from killing?

You presume a great deal, Prometheus. There are any number of reasons to have laws and to obey them, beyond "God says ya gotta do it!"

Chief among the reasons is basic human survival instinct. Most human beings, like all social animals, understand instinctively that their survival depends on maintaining harmony, cooperation and a proper role within the tribe -- the social group. Is it any wonder that societies around the world, with every imaginable religious belief, all tend to adhere to the basic tenets of the 10 commandments, that it's bad to lie, cheat, steal, murder, committ adultery or not obey your parents? It's because we all have an instinct that informs us of right from wrong... a conscience.

I'm an atheist, but I still have a clear moral sense, and I understand to my bones that laws are there for a reason; to keep society functioning smoothly. And since it is in my interest to have a smoothly functioning society around me, I willingly do my bit and cooperate by following the rules. Religion simply codifies basic laws and provides an unassailable authority to "enforce" them... but since God refuses to cast down lightning bolts to punish wrong-doers, God's "enforcement" has to wait until after you die. Therefore, much more effective are the secular, civil laws that provide more immediate punishment for transgressions to societal order.

Quote by: Merlins Byte I do feel that religious people have much more empathy and compassion to their fellow mans inhumanity to man and various situations than atheists, or seculars, or secular atheists do. Sorry if you all do not agree.

Being a liberal, obviously I do not agree.

.

[ibm]

this thread is pointless. and as an atheist, i feel it's an insult (be it intentional or not).

if you really want an answer, let me tell you atheists don't need a god to tell them not to kill. if one is saying all the people who believe in god (be it christian god or islamic god or budda) need to believe in and fear a super being in order not to kill, that is their problem.

[fedfem]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Bunk did you say BUNK? …oh the pain ….oh the hurt…ok I am over it Who knows, Atheists may have it right. I doubt it but hey, I have been wr…wron….Ahhhh’ , I have made a bad decision with the facts at hand before. I will trust the combined 100,000 years of history and pre history and weigh in on the side of the god thing or the GID thing. Ms fed , have you been in prison or jail? Do you personally know anyone converted ? I do. So I am not impressed by you off the cuff remark about Mr. Colson. There are many bad examples of any program and many success stories. I would support prison evangelical religious missions, if even “only” one soul were changed from evil to good. But please elaborate if you want to make a point, one-liners don’t substantiate anything, except perhaps laziness. mb

One liner? I didn't shoot you a one liner.

Your comment about trusting history is interesting since that goes against any evangelical religion--remember--evangelicals have only been around for about 400 years.

Without prison ministries there would be only a few republican activists,lol

Of course that is another thread.

[RickSp]

The presumption that because an individual is unwilling to accept a particular set of religious beliefs on faith and faith alone, then that person must have no regard for human life and no moral or ethical sense is so completely absurd as to be mind boggling. It is even hard to say whether it is more arrogant, insulting or simply stupid. Probably an even mix of all three.

It is even more ridiculous given that the various religious faiths have been the cause of such vast bloodletting, demonstrating exactly the contempt for human life that the theistic posters are now assigning to atheists.

[Starboy]

Quote by: fedfem Your comment about trusting history is interesting since that goes against any evangelical religion--remember--evangelicals have only been around for about 400 years.

Also do not forget that the Chinese civilization which is the oldest known civilization on the planet by far has no creator myth. According to their myth reality came from chaos.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

Bunk--Atheists treasure human life since they know a human life is only here for a short time. People in prison mostly convert to get the special privileges provided to christians by the "ministries"(some--Chuck Colson types)

Ok I was mistaken it was a two liner. I am sorry for being so mean.
Religion has been around for 5000 years or so

Main Entry: evan·ge·list
Pronunciation: i-'van-j&-list
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : often capitalized : a writer of any of the four Gospels ..

try over 2000 years...in one use of the term that is...

mb

[CJFreeman]

Prometheus,

Quite simply, the easiest way to answer your question to the atheists "why not murder?" is to say atheism does not entail antinomianism. That is, disbelief in a supreme deity does not suggest itself to de facto lawlessness.

Christopher J. Freeman

[Sonart]

Quote by: CJFreeman That is, disbelief in a supreme deity does not suggest itself to de facto lawlessness.

And therein lies my greatest beef with the religious; the presumption that we -- atheists -- are immoral by definition. I have to laugh every time a Christian whines about folks 'bashing Christians'. They have no idea what 'bashing' is until they've lived their lives being condemned by 'good Christians' as the scum of the earth, the equivilent of murderers and child molesters, and deserving of the most excruciating agony for all eternity, simply because I don't believe what they do.

.

[fedfem]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Ok I was mistaken it was a two liner. I am sorry for being so mean. Religion has been around for 5000 years or so Main Entry: evan·ge·list Pronunciation: i-'van-j&-list Function: noun Date: 13th century 1 : often capitalized : a writer of any of the four Gospels .. try over 2000 years...in one use of the term that is... mb

You don't seem to be into math either. If the word originated in the 13th Century...where the heck do you get years 2000?

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Prometheus It seems to me, that there is not reason to keep any kind of law if you can get away with it if you are an atheist. Lets say that you could gain a great deal of money from killing someone, and are garenteed not to get caught. What keeps you from killing?

Assuming it were a complete stranger, nothing would keep me from killing, except maybe empathy. Of course, the moral is equal to the practical. And in practical terms, your situation is impossible.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: orgaelin Leave for a fire?! In an hour?! Any way I try and make sense of that I can't figure out why you might be leaving for a fire in an hour!

I am a wildland firefighter. We get called out on very short notice. I am 200 miles from home surfing the net from a tent with my friends computer with a sattelite modem. Up tomarrow at 4:00 am to dig fireline!

[Prometheus]

Quote by: RickSp And you didn't answer my Mountain Meadows question. What would you do if your religious leaders told you to kill?

My actions are not based on what a religious leader tells me to do. My actions are based on what I believe god wants me to do. Religious leaders cen help you learn to discover gods will, and can organize followers - but any true religious belief must be obtained individually and explicitly.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 There is never going to be a situation like this. It's not realistic in any context.

Maybe not - but this is a philosophy forum. In philosophy we ask abstract hypothetical questions.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Starboy This sounds like you are saying that morality is the animal behavior of a social animal. Starboy

Why not. If morals are in fact societal, and not religious, then they are essentially animal, just like our sex drive and need for food. The case you atheists have laid out (and a pretty good one in my opinion) is that morals are essentially evolutionary. The argument could be forther made that the judaeo-christian commandments are just a codification of evolutionary instinct. Very interesting.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: ibm this thread is pointless. and as an atheist, i feel it's an insult (be it intentional or not).

If you are offended by an hinest inquiry then I pity you. This is simply a benign inquiry of atheistic beliefs. I would have thought you would be eager to explain your philosophy instead of berate me for phrasing the question in a manner ignorant of the idea I want to understand.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: RickSp The presumption that because an individual is unwilling to accept a particular set of religious beliefs on faith and faith alone, then that person must have no regard for human life and no moral or ethical sense is so completely absurd as to be mind boggling. It is even hard to say whether it is more arrogant, insulting or simply stupid. Probably an even mix of all three.

My implication was not that atheists have no regard for human life. I know that this is not the case. My question is the basic philosophical basis for such a regard. Some good answers have already been proffered. But not by you. If you would rather insult than answer a question about your own philosophy go ahead. There are enough here that are willing to have a real discussion.

It is even more ridiculous given that the various religious faiths have been the cause of such vast bloodletting, demonstrating exactly the contempt for human life that the theistic posters are now assigning to atheists.

Good grief, every timea christian says anything you have to shove in our faces the shitty things that others professing the same beliefs have done. Enough already. By asking this question I was making no claim about how religious people don't kill people all the time. Talk about defensive.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Prometheus Good grief, every timea christian says anything you have to shove in our faces the shitty things that others professing the same beliefs have done. Enough already. By asking this question I was making no claim about how religious people don't kill people all the time. Talk about defensive.

I agree, there's a lot of vehement overreaction to your perfectly reasonable question.

[MerlinsByte]

And therein lies my greatest beef with the religious; the presumption that we -- atheists -- are immoral by definition

Merlin writes...I dont think that all atheists are bad...lol...or all Satanist, really!

Hey! That would make a good book. Say a time traveler went back and founded this or a new country on atheist or Satanist principles. It would be cool to see what the philosophy of a deity less society would manifast as.Would it be any different evil or better thatn what we have now? I'm not kidding Hmmmm ...maybe this should be a new thread .

mb