How can I beleive in christianity when the christians cant even agree with themselves

[Jack]

I believe I already know, as my Dad and stepmom up in Idaho, and their entire family, is Mormon.

[Inquisitor]

Isherwood Dear Inquisitor, I wish I could continue to try to keep up with your unique form of logic, but I'm afraid that if I stray that far out into left field, I'll get a nosebleed. When you get back to Earth, let me know. Maybe we can debate something based in reality. Pax.

Thank you. According to Saint Seraphim of Sarov (http://www.russia-hc.ru/eng/religion...d/SerSarov.cfm) a true Orthodox must be rejected by the world and all is needed to be rejected is to confess the true faith.

Flip Jackson Joseph Smith and his brother confirmed their faith with their lives. Not to mention all the other types of persecution Mormons faced in the early days of its existence. Enough said. More generally, didn't men like Martin Luther die for their religious causes? Martyrdom doesn't automatically validate a belief, only one's dedication to the belief. This would apply to all "saints." The belief may have been true, but be careful not to mix cause and effect.

True, martyrdom doesn't automatically validates faith. Yet, I said confirmed with their lives! and death. Read lives of saints and you will understand what I mean.

Flip Jackson Inquisitor, I looked at the site you gave, and I hate to break it too you, but a lot of that is untrue. Whoever made that summary used two very different sets of sources. Some were by Mormons about our history. Others were obviously heavily biased in the other direction, and often represented our views incorrectly. I will point out a few problems with the site. ---Mormon polygamist groups do not currently exist and haven't for years. The practice stopped years ago. Those who practice it nowadays are excommunicated. ---That is an interesting take on Joseph Smith, nothing like I have heard before. I feel the need to check the sources validity on that one. ---If Joseph was poorly educated, how could he possibly create the best counterfeit of the Bible? ---I have never heard of a pair of spectacles that could interpret the plates. That is not taught in our religion. Someone else concocted that entire part about what was with the Book of Mormon. ---The claim of our beliefs in God is almost entirely false. The only correst part i saw was that we believe God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate beings. I have never been taught that Adam was God. Nor have I ever heard that Adam-God brought the birth of Jehovah through the virgin Mary. These are fantastic tales that no Mormon has ever been taught, but someone else made up to make us look bad. ---It also says that the Book of Mormon isn't supported by archeological evidence. Uh, also wrong. At the time that Joseph got the plates, it was unheard of to find gold plates from previous people. But since then other gold plates have been found. Not religious, but historical. Apparently ancient people realized metal plates would last awhile. Not to mention word printing, or the fact that many customs in the Book of Mormon reveal Jewish culture, such as Chiasmus. Could an uneducated Joseph know these things? I haven't finished your article, but I will address the rest later.

So polygamy was fine once and is not fine anymore? True faith doesn't change because God is unchangeable. If your faith changed that much in mere 150 years, is it truth?

You believe that God, Christ and Holy Ghost are separate beings? So you don't believe in Holy Trinity? Moreover you believe them to be beings? Part of Orthodox's liturgy says, " to them who say that God is being and not spirit - anathema!".

My personal problem with mormonism is, how do you imagine that for 1850 years after The Christ has risen the truth didn't exist? So apostles and saints, bishops and priests, kings and princes , monks and laymen were all wrong? Makes no sense.

Isherwood Congrat, Flip Jackson. Now you know a little of how it feels to be a gay atheist. Isn't it amazing that much of what's presented as "facts" about group X are manufacturered by people who have never been a member of group X, have never studied much about group X and in reality, know next to nothing about group X. One reason I feel I can fairly comment on christianity is because I was a deeply involved one, for many years. I know few christians who have ever been atheists. Straight culture is around me constantly, and I lived as a straight person for 20+ years before accepting my true nature. Again, I don't know any straights who were once gay, although I do know a lot of gays who still live as straights. Inquisitor's points are fun to poke holes in, but I wish you luck in getting anywhere with it.

I am sorry that your ancestors sins were so great that you have been punished for them ( homosexuality). The best option for someone in your situation is monastery, yet I understand that you are very much against this option.

Starboy Yikes! A gay atheist. Its hard enough being an atheist, I can't imagine what it must be like to be a gay atheist. The Christians like to pretend that they are somehow persecuted. Someday I would like them to have actual knowledge of it. They cannot imagine what it is like to be persecuted by a group that thinks they are persecuted.

I fail to see your point. I found life when I was an atheist was much easier. I could do many pleasant things I cannot now. I felt no prosecution whatsorever. Frankly, I don't feel prosecuted being an Orthodox Christian. This time has yet to come.

[Flip Jackson]

Inquisitor, you make too many claims that are untrue, and seem to ignore the fact that your sources aren't exactly the best in the world.

You assume that the leaders of other religious movements didn't confirm their faith with their lives. Why would they need to be martyred if they weren't truly living their beliefs. The word martyred kind of assumes that a person lived strictlly to their beliefs and died for them.

I did not say "polygamy was fine then, but not now." I said it wasn't currently PRACTICED. I made the point that they do not now exist because your source made some silly calim about what "Mormon polygamist groups" were doing. I was informing you that they don't exist right now, so your source was wrong. I was shooting down the validity of your source because so much of it was flawed. About it being "fine," we do not say polygamy is wrong. We do not practice it now. Our church believes in following the laws of the land, and polygamy is not allowed, so it is not practiced. Be careful about what you assume.

And when is the Trinity mentioned in the Bible? The word will not be found. In fact there are instances in the Bible where the three could not be one entity, such as at Christ's baptism.

Don't say I am wrong because I don't use the same vocabulary that you do. I used beings for lack of a better word at the moment. I suppose "entities" might work also. If you must know, we believe God and Christ both have bodies and spirits (as man does), and the Holy Ghost is a spirit only. So you can curse me if you like, but not for beleiving that God is not Spirit.

You need to study your sources a bit better or people on this forum will rip you apart. I assure you that I know my reliigon better than you, so I wouldn't advise telling me what I believe.

And about your personal problem with Mormonism. It is personal, so I can't make you feel differently, but I will tell you what we believe. It isn't that we think the truth didn't exist, or that previous church leaders were wrong. We believe that the authority was lost when Christ and his apostles were killed. Since then, authority was replaced with man's ideas of what scripture meant, as no more revelation was available without authority.

How can you still hold so much against Mormonism when your sources have been shown to be inaccurate? Can you think so much evil of something that you don't truly know much about?

Our view does make sense if you look at it in that respect, but I know you will try to bring up new arguments. Be my guest. If they are as untrue as your previous arguments, I will shoot you down again.

[Inquisitor]

Flip Jackson I did not say "polygamy was fine then, but not now." I said it wasn't currently PRACTICED. I made the point that they do not now exist because your source made some silly calim about what "Mormon polygamist groups" were doing. I was informing you that they don't exist right now, so your source was wrong. I was shooting down the validity of your source because so much of it was flawed. About it being "fine," we do not say polygamy is wrong. We do not practice it now. Our church believes in following the laws of the land, and polygamy is not allowed, so it is not practiced. Be careful about what you assume.

So much for your faith, if you place the law of the land above The Law of The God. Your religion is way to convinient and politically correct to be truth. Besides, what would your current "prophet" say when The Anti-Christ comes to power and demands to be worshipped as God? Will he have a "revelation" that this is indeed how it should be? I bet this is the case.

And when is the Trinity mentioned in the Bible? The word will not be found. In fact there are instances in the Bible where the three could not be one entity, such as at Christ's baptism.

All you need to know about Holy Trinity. Includes Bibles passages that prove it.
http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?S...Holy%20Trinity

Don't say I am wrong because I don't use the same vocabulary that you do. I used beings for lack of a better word at the moment. I suppose "entities" might work also. If you must know, we believe God and Christ both have bodies and spirits (as man does), and the Holy Ghost is a spirit only. So you can curse me if you like, but not for beleiving that God is not Spirit.

I don't curse you, The Church does. Thinking that God has body is heresy in its purest. All matter is created, before God created univerese there was nothing, no matter, no time. Therefore God is spirit for if he had body, then he would be a creature, not The Creator.

You need to study your sources a bit better or people on this forum will rip you apart. I assure you that I know my reliigon better than you, so I wouldn't advise telling me what I believe.

I don't know your religion better than you. I couldn't possibly. There are too many heresies around to have detailed knowledge on each of them. Why don't you say why you believe in mormonism? What makes you think that this is truth? What makes you think that the True Christianity was lost when apostles died?

How can you still hold so much against Mormonism when your sources have been shown to be inaccurate? Can you think so much evil of something that you don't truly know much about?

Which of my sources are inaccurate? The Holy Scripture or perhaps The Holy Tradition? The beauty of Orthodoxy is that it tells you what The Truth is. Therefore the rest by definition is lies. And BTW don't be offended youa are in a "good" company with approximately 17000 various denominations, churches, cults etc.

[Jack]

Inquisitor, your attitude of "I'm absolutely right and everybody else is wrong" is a perfect illustration of the topic title. Everybody's got "The Truth" and everyone else's "truth" is an untruth.
One advantage we non-theists have over the theists; if you don't agree with us we don't condemn you to everlasting hell. All we do is shrug and say, "That's your choice, believe what you will then." We don't have any imaginary big brother to make you suffer for disagreeing with us.

[juanhar1]

:) There's a passage of scripture that answers the questions you've raised which puts the "ball" in Christ's court. It illustrates Christ's response to an unbeliever ,this time it was one of his diciples aka "Doubting Thomas".
The way the story went, Thomas(Didymus) was not present when Mary Magdalene brought the word to the others disciples that Christ had truly risen, but came later. When he was told the news he refused to believe it without some hard evidence that what he was hearing was true. He wanted to see the nail scars in the hands and feet of Christ and where the spear pierced his side. Christ appeared and granted his wishes. Thomas' response was " MY LORD and MY GOD" . Jesus said to Thomas; "Because you have seen and touched me, you believe, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. (Jn.20:24-29)

It appears to me that belief in the word of God depends on God, verifying that His word is TRUTH. So before you totally write him off, why not allow him to not only talk the talk but Walk the Walk by proving that what he has said, WORKs. It's His responsibility to provide the hard evidence for you to believe in.

One of His laws he has put in place, is the law of Resiprocity; What goes around comes around. How about testing this one for the hard evidence that Thomas wished for?
Go here to test and put this plan in action: http://www.eliteactivity.tv/frontroo...&page=home.php
Juan

[juanhar1]

There's a passage of scripture that answers the questions you've raised which puts the "ball" in Christ's court. It illustrates Christ's response to an unbeliever;this time it was one of his diciples aka "Doubting Thomas".
The way the story went, Thomas(Didymus) was not present when Mary Magdalene brought the word to the others disciples that Christ had truly risen, but came later. When he was told the news he refused to believe it without some hard evidence that what he was hearing was true. He wanted to see the nail scars in the hands and feet of Christ and where the spear pierced his side. Christ appeared and granted this wish. Thomas' response was " MY LORD and MY GOD" . Jesus said to Thomas; "Because you have seen and touched me, you believe, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. (Jn.20:24-29)

It appears to me that belief in the word of God depends on God, first, verifying that His word is TRUTH. So before you totally write him off, why not allow him to not only talk the talk but Walk the Walk by proving that what he has said, WORKs. It's His responsibility to provide the hard evidence for you to believe.

One of his laws he has put in place is the law of Resiprocity; What goes around comes around. How about testing this one for the hard evidence that Thomas wished for?
Go here to learn how to test and put this plan in action. Copy and paste this site into your browser: http://www.eliteactivity.tv/frontro...0&page=home.php
Juan

[Jack]

The link is 404.

One of his laws he has put in place is the law of Resiprocity; What goes around comes around

As much as I believe that happens now and then, I wasn't aware it was one of god's laws. Where exactly might that be found?

It's His responsibility to provide the hard evidence for you to believe.

Whe I did believe, I did so based on faith. I didn't get any tangible evidence. But I'm willing to go with you on this. He knows where to find me (supposedly), so I'll be waithing to see what he comes up with.

[Flip Jackson]

Inquisitor, as Isherwood pointed out, your style of debate leaves something lacking....You cannot say "everyone one is wrong and going to hell because I am right." That is horrible reasoning. What are you trying to do on this forum? Laugh at everyone that will be burning while you are in heaven? That's just sick man.

I did not say that the law of the land was above God's law. I said He wants us to follow the lands's laws. What sort of God would want his followers to cause riots and rebellions? Our faith is by no means "convenient." Surely you have heard of all the persecution we faced and continue to face for our beliefs.

To my understanding, it will be pretty obvious when Christ comes again. I may need to check out Revelations again, but I think there will be quite the racket. If some man just says he is Christ, how believable would that be?

As to God having a body...I want to see a quote from the Bible that says he has no body. Doesn'tit say in Genesis that man was created in the image of God? So is God a spirit that looks like man? That seems a little strange to me. And do the scriptures say He created everything from nothing? I don't think so. We create things from already existent material. Couldn't He have done the same? And how do you know that spirit isn't a form of matter?

You throw the word "heresy" around too much, my man. As for why I belive in Mormonism, first of all we don't condemn everyone to hell for not believing as we do. That is about as unChristian as it gets. Didn't Christ say "Let him among you who is sinless cast the first stone?" I doubt you are sinless. I have many reasons for beleiving what I do, but you don't like to listen. I can start a new thread if you'd like.
I think that true Christianity was no longer around because no one had authority anymore. Have any churches had a prophet since Christ's death? Beofre Christ there were always prophets, not Tradition, to guide the church. I assure you that Noah would prefer revelation to tradition.

You are pretty arrogant, you know that? "We have the truth so all else is lies." Wow. You need to step off your high horse and get a good look at reality, and maybe Christianity while you are at it. As was pointed out in another topic, Christ never preached intolerance or condemnation of others. You need to focus on your own mistakes.

As for saying your sources are inaccurate, I meant the site that you put up in explanation of Mormonism. It has all sorts of flaws, but you did not address that. Honestly, if you spell something wrong in a forum, I will let that slide pretty easily. But if your professional source can't spell or use spellcheck, I am not impressed.
And since you brought up "Holy Tradition," enlighten me on when that came into play. In history, tradition had caused no end of problems. I don't recall anything in the Bible that encouraged a "Holy Tradition." Besides, who decided what this tradition was?

[Inquisitor]

Isherwood Inquisitor, your attitude of "I'm absolutely right and everybody else is wrong" is a perfect illustration of the topic title. Everybody's got "The Truth" and everyone else's "truth" is an untruth. One advantage we non-theists have over the theists; if you don't agree with us we don't condemn you to everlasting hell. All we do is shrug and say, "That's your choice, believe what you will then." We don't have any imaginary big brother to make you suffer for disagreeing with us.

I personally cannot be absolutely right. In fact I as a person probabbly err far to often. However the teaching of Christ, preserved in its purity by The Holy Orthodox Church is The Truth.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life

Orthodoxy BTW translated from Greek as right faith.

Also I don't condemn anyone to hell. Who am I do that? Only the Saviour has the power to judge. All I try to do is to warn you of consequences of not following the truth. Pretty much like, if you steal you will go to gaol.

juanhar1 It's His responsibility to provide the hard evidence for you to believe in.

He created you, He accepted terrible death for your sins. What other responcibility you dare to ask of Him? It's your choice to seek the truth or to live in spiritual blindness. Don't shift your problems on others.

One of his laws he has put in place is the law of Resiprocity; What goes around comes around. How about testing this one for the hard evidence that Thomas wished for? Go here to learn how to test and put this plan in action. Copy and paste this site into your browser: http://www.eliteactivity.tv/frontro...0&page=home.php Juan

It is great to give. The problem I have with it is. The goal of a Christians life is to accamulate The Holy Ghost. Giving will only give you benefit if you asked in the name of Christ. This is why I will only ever give to them who ask " Please help me in the name of Christ".

Flip Jackson Inquisitor, as Isherwood pointed out, your style of debate leaves something lacking....You cannot say "everyone one is wrong and going to hell because I am right." That is horrible reasoning. What are you trying to do on this forum? Laugh at everyone that will be burning while you are in heaven? That's just sick man.

This is not so. Firstly, I am absolutely not sure that I personally will be saved. Secondly we debate here on Christ's Faith. It is my sacred duty ( as an Orthodox Christian ) to confess The True Faith " always, everywhere, regardless of consequences". Thirdly I don't want to laugh at people who are going to hell. Far from it. I am trying to maximize their chance of Salvation.
You see even though I grew up as an atheist, after I was born I was Christened in Holy Orthodoxy, therefore a spark of Holy Ghost always dwelt within me, so it was too easy to return to Christ when I became older and hopefuly smarter.
You and countless others didn't have the benefit of being Christened in True Faith (which is certainly not your fault), this is the very reason you and others are so easly seduced by decievers. So all I try to do is to extend the free gift I recieved ( only thanks to my ancestors who were Orthodox) to others.

I did not say that the law of the land was above God's law. I said He wants us to follow the lands's laws. What sort of God would want his followers to cause riots and rebellions? Our faith is by no means "convenient." Surely you have heard of all the persecution we faced and continue to face for our beliefs.

Christ would want us to cause riots and rebellions if this is needed to confess The Truth.
Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

When communists in 1920's issued decree about confiscation of Church's valuables, hundreds of thousands came to Churches and caused rebellion and riots and recieved martyr's crowns. Do you think Christ would want them to obey "the law of the land", I think not.

To my understanding, it will be pretty obvious when Christ comes again. I may need to check out Revelations again, but I think there will be quite the racket. If some man just says he is Christ, how believable would that be?

Very believable to majority. Please study revelations again. Following is an excellent interpretation shall you be interested.
http://romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20BOOK%2...207.5X9.25.htm

As to God having a body...I want to see a quote from the Bible that says he has no body. Doesn'tit say in Genesis that man was created in the image of God? So is God a spirit that looks like man? That seems a little strange to me. And do the scriptures say He created everything from nothing? I don't think so. We create things from already existent material. Couldn't He have done the same? And how do you know that spirit isn't a form of matter?

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In here it says clearly that God is spirit. And also that no matter existed before He created it.

You throw the word "heresy" around too much, my man. As for why I belive in Mormonism, first of all we don't condemn everyone to hell for not believing as we do. That is about as unChristian as it gets. Didn't Christ say "Let him among you who is sinless cast the first stone?" I doubt you are sinless. I have many reasons for beleiving what I do, but you don't like to listen. I can start a new thread if you'd like. I think that true Christianity was no longer around because no one had authority anymore. Have any churches had a prophet since Christ's death? Beofre Christ there were always prophets, not Tradition, to guide the church. I assure you that Noah would prefer revelation to tradition.

I certainly am not sinless. I only call heresy what The Church calls heresy. And yes there were many prophets. Many saints were given a gift of vision. The difference is they deserved this gift by following Dogma of The Church and by tireless work by exterminating their sins. Here are two prophesies by saints. Read their lives and you will understand the difference between them and LDS saints.
http://web.archive.org/web/200306192...ow/vol6/6.html
http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/...clairmonk.html

You are pretty arrogant, you know that? "We have the truth so all else is lies." Wow. You need to step off your high horse and get a good look at reality, and maybe Christianity while you are at it. As was pointed out in another topic, Christ never preached intolerance or condemnation of others. You need to focus on your own mistakes.

True, I am not humble enough and this is only one of my great sins. However confession of The Truth is not a sin. St. Nicholas the Wonderworker assualted a heretic.
http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp
"St. Nicholas, fired with zeal for the Lord, assailed the heretic Arius with his words, and also struck him upon the face." and yet he is a saint. So it's not wrong in God's eyes to assualt heretics especially verbally.

Also Christ never taught tolerance.
Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

As for saying your sources are inaccurate, I meant the site that you put up in explanation of Mormonism. It has all sorts of flaws, but you did not address that. Honestly, if you spell something wrong in a forum, I will let that slide pretty easily. But if your professional source can't spell or use spellcheck, I am not impressed.

Denying a single notion of The Holy Orthodoxy is enough to constitute a heresy. The fact that mormons deny Holy Trinity is enough for me to call them heretics without going much deeper into actual beliefs of mormons. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but The Truth is uncompromising.

And since you brought up "Holy Tradition," enlighten me on when that came into play. In history, tradition had caused no end of problems. I don't recall anything in the Bible that encouraged a "Holy Tradition." Besides, who decided what this tradition was?

To an Orthodox Christian, Tradition means the Holy Bible; it means the Creed; it means the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils and the writings of the Fathers; it means the Canons, the Service Books, the Holy Icons, etc. In essence, it means the whole system of doctrine, ecclesiastical government, worship and art which Orthodoxy has articulated over the ages [Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church, p.204].
http://www.stots.edu/article.php?id=26

[Jack]

When communists in 1920's issued decree about confiscation of Church's valuables, hundreds of thousands came to Churches and caused rebellion and riots and recieved martyr's crowns. Do you think Christ would want them to obey "the law of the land", I think not.

Yeah, Jesus was real big on protecting the wealth of the church.

This is a discussion forum. I'm not sure what value you get out of it if you're so sure you already know the "truth". You really shouldn't use that cop-out of, "I'm not saying this, the church is". You are the one here representing those statements. At least have the moral courage to own up to your own beliefs. You may not be personally condemning anyone to hell, but you certainly believe in it and support the concept.
Sorry, sir, but I still say you give the best example I've read here as to the truth of the topic title.

[Flip Jackson]

First, I am surprised that you will only help someone if they ask you in Chrits's name. What about the good Samaritan of the Bible? Shouldn't we help anyone we can?

For some reason I don't think God wants us to cause riots and rebellions. Your first scripture talks of what Christ was doing. I don't think that means that we should cause problems or anything. The second scripture is refering to the opposition that we should be willing to take when we decide to live the way we do. It doesn't promote riots or anything. We should live theright way, but shouldn't try to force that on others.

Genesis 1:1-2 do not say "God is Spirit only." They say "the Spirit of God" moved on the face of the waters. This does not prove that God does not have a body in addition to Spirit. Nor does the scripture say that God created matter, it says the earth was without form and void, which makes me think that material was there before hand, and He made the earth with it.
As long as we are quoting scripture, Genesis 1:26-27 says that God created man in his own image, "after his likeness." This means that man AT LEAST looks like God. It seems to also mean that God has a body. Why would he not have a body if he gave man one?

You say that your saints deserved the gift of vision, but my church leaders did not. Where do you get your knowledge of my church lleaders that lets you condemn them so? From my understading they were great, God-fearing men. And the last site that you gave which tried to discount Mormonism and its leaders was too full of lies to be taken into account.

Honestly, your saint that attacked a heretic disturbs me. I don't recall seeing nything of that sort in the Bible. Christ himself certainly never attacked anyone. He suffered all. He didn't cause others to suffer. You cannot prove you are right by using resources that only you belive in. I haven't used the Book of Mormon to prove my points, because I know you don't believe in it. Using lives of saints from your church to prove a point won't work well.

Besides who decides who is a heretic? The name of our church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We are for Christ I assure you, but you label us heretics and say that gives you the religious right to assault us.

I am sorry, but you can't discount an entire religion because we do not agree with a concept that came about after Christ's death. I haven't called you a heretic even though I don't agree with you. But if you are going to use the Trinity as a way for calling us heretics, then that is a valid reason by your belief. As long as you don't parade around lies from poor sources about all that we do wrong.

You can have fun trying to respong to this, but I think I am done.You use sources from your chruch to prove it is true, and I cannot debate that. Just keep in mind that much of what you belive about Mormons is false. If you so feel the need, condemn away, but try to find valid reasons to do so.

The Professor is out.

[James]

You don't agree with Christianity because Christians can't always agree with each other?

Do scientists EVER agree???

[Starboy]

Quote by: James Do scientists EVER agree???

Yes and no. Eventually there is a consensus. It is not as if there are thousands of different versions of physics similar to the hundreds of thousands of version of the supernatural. But that consensus does change over time. Since science is not in the business of finding the "truth", it is in the business of finding the best explanations and it has a way of determining if the explanation is better than another. It is called experiment on nature, or more simply put, "just go and look". And if your explanations predict things that do not happen and are not found to be there then as far as science is concerned it sucks as compared to explanations that do predict what will happen and you find the things that it predicts are there.

Do not get me wrong. There is a need for religion by mankind, but as long as the supernatural religions insist on supernatural explanations of reality they are in competition with science and are in conflict with science. Such religions have lost that competition and as long as they continue to try to explain reality with the supernatural they force their adherents to be deluded and dishonest.

Starboy

[Athena]

Yeah, Jesus was real big on protecting the wealth of the church.

Very powerful statement, Isherwood. But I am afraid it is lost on the religious who are the opposite of what Jesus was. I don't know if they realize how strongly Jesus was opposed to Rome and the pharasees who accumulating great wealth by using their version of religious truth to make themselves powerful, while they did no good for the rural Hebrews, of from which Jesus came.

Starboy, you gave an excellent explanation of the importance and practice of science. I just want to add to this, that Egypt used math to understand the order of the universe and then men like Pythagoras brought this to the Greeks, and this eventually becomes the foundation for democracy. The US separated from Christian Europe, and Christian Germany became our our world war enemy. If Christianity is the saving of the world, than pray tell, how did Christian Germany become our enemy? How about why does Bush say we are the New World Order and so many Christians support this? Why has Christianity turned from science?

[James]

Quote by: Athena Why has Christianity turned from science?

Because scientists like Darwin come up with theories that conflict with the Bible. The Bible says the word of God is pure. One bit of anything but truth makes it impure. So they must either realize their theories are wrong, or declare the Bible is false.

[Starboy]

Quote by: James Because scientists like Darwin come up with theories that conflict with the Bible. The Bible says the word of God is pure. One bit of anything but truth makes it impure. So they must either realize their theories are wrong, or declare the Bible is false.

Most scientists could care less about the bible. They are looking at reality. It is just too bad for the bible heads that it sucks at explaining reality. It is the bible heads that have a problem with science. To most scientists the bible is as relevant as any other supernatural explanation of existence. In other words it is irrelevant. And as long as the bible heads ignore that human knowledge has moved on they will continue to be deluded and dishonest.

Starboy

[Athena]

Quote by: James Because scientists like Darwin come up with theories that conflict with the Bible. The Bible says the word of God is pure. One bit of anything but truth makes it impure. So they must either realize their theories are wrong, or declare the Bible is false.

Where does the bible say the word of God is pure?

Catholism has always practice another choice. Protestants attempted to fix religion, by interpreting the bible literally, and this is what causes the problem. Myth is not to be interpreted literally. Myth is to be understood abstractly and when the bible is intrepreted abstractly, it does not conflict with sceince. If Protestants would give up their conflict with Catholism, that would be an improvement. Catholics who rationalized the bible, found it easier to accept the earth is round and revolves the sun, than the Protestants who were trapped in a literal interpretation of the bible, when they decided to break from the Chruch.

Catholics will explain the bible is about God, and is not meant to be a scientifically or historically accurate book. They use the bible to know what is true of God, not what is true of worldly reality. I still can't go there, because I think the Hebrew understanding of God is faulted, and the later Christian belief in Satan and demons, is really faulted! Still, the Catholics can deal with science better than Protestants. And Islam does much better than Christianity. Although it begins with the same prophets and biblical stories, Islam is not based on a belief in miracles and rejected superstition.

Note: the Protestant movement began the 1500's.

Historians believe that the church put to death about 300,000 innocent women between 1484 and 1782.

My World Book encyclodia should clarify the Protestants, not the Cahtolics, put all these women to death. Both the Protestant Reformation and witch hunts started in Germany. Martin Luther thought government persecution of witches was necessary. Without science our Christian reality would be seeped in superstition and brutality. Perhaps we should pay more attention to the Protestant denomiations and the cultures from which they sprang. Quakers have Celtic roots and focus on the teachings of Jesus. Very different from authoritarian German Protestant demoninations, with an autocrat God, and very strong focus on the power of Satan.

[Matt W]

Because scientists like Darwin come up with theories that conflict with the Bible. The Bible says the word of God is pure. One bit of anything but truth makes it impure. So they must either realize their theories are wrong, or declare the Bible is false.

The various churches said that about Da Vinci, too, and all the other scientists of the Reneissance who produced things we hold to be self-evident now, James. Funnily enough, the scientists were right, and the priests wrong.