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Gorgo · Jun 24, 2005, 09:06 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

You must look at what his views were in relation to the society he was in.

Which means that his support of slavery was okay, because slavery was a good idea then. No straw men, that's your logic.

Prometheus · Jun 24, 2005, 09:37 pm

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Quote by: Gorgo

Which means that his support of slavery was okay, because slavery was a good idea then. No straw men, that's your logic.

I don't know that it was a good idea, but it was socially acceptable at that time. In fact, I don't know that Jesus ever spoke out against it.

You can judge for yourself wheather it's OK to be in tune with societal norms, but that's what slavery was at the time.

I however think that where Jesus differed from societal norms is where his "politics" come out.

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 24, 2005, 09:54 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

Morgan Freeman

You can't claim Jesus was an anarchist, because he constantly spoke of kingdoms. The kingdom of heaven would be a theocracy.

True, but with regards to interhuman politics (the kind everyone is talking about), he would be an anarchist.

fedfem · Jun 24, 2005, 10:30 pm

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Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

True, but with regards to interhuman politics (the kind everyone is talking about), he would be an anarchist.

I disagree, he said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's(taxes)and give to God what is God's--paraphrase. That sounds like separation of church and state to me.lol

mr.perfecto · Jun 24, 2005, 10:57 pm

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Quote by: Gorgo

Which means that his support of slavery was okay, because slavery was a good idea then. No straw men, that's your logic.

How many slave uprisings occured in ancient Israel?

fedfem · Jun 24, 2005, 11:16 pm

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Quote by: mr.perfecto

How many slave uprisings occured in ancient Israel?

Slavery 2000 years ago was of the indentured type mostly. There were uprisings but slaves held by the jews were released at certain times.

The NT speaks out about slavery as far as abusing but in many passages they are talking about indentured servants not slaves in the sense we had in America.

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 25, 2005, 01:07 am

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Quote by: fedfem

I disagree, he said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's(taxes)and give to God what is God's--paraphrase. That sounds like separation of church and state to me.lol

One of the most misquoted lines in the bible. Read the actual chapter that comes from. Jesus was *not* condoning taxes.

DTB123 · Jun 25, 2005, 01:37 am

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Quote by: Chalk

Damn bible.com's useless search feature.. I was going to quote the lead up to his crucifixion as a specific example; he is in a temple and overturns a table..something to do with how the people had corrupted a place of worship and turned it into a market?

John, chapter 2:

13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Try this link for a reliable, online Bible search tool: http://www.blueletterbible.org/

You can download some great, free Bible software here: http://www.onlinebible.net/bibles.html

DTB123 · Jun 25, 2005, 01:57 am

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Quote by: Athena

However, many find value in the teachings of Jesus, and the concept of an unknowable God, a God beyond our comprehension.

I appreciate your replies here. Very interesting insights!

You mentioned an "unknowable God," above. I would be very interested to hear your take on John 17:3 where Jesus says:

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"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Gary7 · Jun 25, 2005, 08:17 am

Jesus was a Capricorn.

Prometheus · Jun 25, 2005, 10:06 am

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Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

One of the most misquoted lines in the bible. Read the actual chapter that comes from. Jesus was *not* condoning taxes.

You have to read the scripture in context. Jesus was not really saying anything meaningfull, as he was simply sidestepping a question. The phariseis were trying to trick him. If he said to pay taxes, then he was offending the Jews, and if he said not to, he could get in trouble for speaking out against Rome. It was a trap. Thats why he gave the lame answer about whose picture was on the coin. There is little meaning in the statement. Jesus was just wigling out of a hard question with a meaningless answer.

fedfem · Jun 25, 2005, 12:25 pm

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Quote by: Prometheus

You have to read the scripture in context. Jesus was not really saying anything meaningfull, as he was simply sidestepping a question. The phariseis were trying to trick him. If he said to pay taxes, then he was offending the Jews, and if he said not to, he could get in trouble for speaking out against Rome. It was a trap. Thats why he gave the lame answer about whose picture was on the coin. There is little meaning in the statement. Jesus was just wigling out of a hard question with a meaningless answer.

Agree it was a trap.

Mark 12:13-17

13(A)Then they sent some of the Pharisees and (B)Herodians to Him in order to (C)trap Him in a statement.
14They came and said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?

15"Shall we pay or shall we not pay?" But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, "Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a [a]denarius to look at."

16They brought one. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" And they said to Him, "Caesar's."

17And Jesus said to them, "(D)Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him.

fedfem · Jun 25, 2005, 12:26 pm

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Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

One of the most misquoted lines in the bible. Read the actual chapter that comes from. Jesus was *not* condoning taxes.

I posted a quote above--he surely was talking about taxes.

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 25, 2005, 03:47 pm

He wasn't talking about taxes, he was talking about Roman-minted coins with a picture of Caesar on them being literally the property of Caeser.

fedfem · Jun 25, 2005, 04:08 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

He wasn't talking about taxes, he was talking about Roman-minted coins with a picture of Caesar on them being literally the property of Caeser.

In regard to taxes...

14They came and said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?

Prometheus · Jun 25, 2005, 08:23 pm

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Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

He wasn't talking about taxes, he was talking about Roman-minted coins with a picture of Caesar on them being literally the property of Caeser.

Which is kind of a crappy argument. Do I need to give all my dollar bills to george washington?

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 25, 2005, 10:06 pm

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Quote by: fedfem

In regard to taxes...

14They came and said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?

Yeah, and he dodged the question.

Athena · Jun 25, 2005, 11:30 pm

You all can quibble over the silliest things. How about this, if you were to follow Jesus, you would walk away from your job and walk away from your family, and trust God to provide for you. You would chose to live as the lilies of the feild, and that makes conservative Christians anti Jesus. They freak out if their sons and daughters do not conform to capitalist values.

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 26, 2005, 06:45 pm

That's not quite right. Jesus never said that individuals shouldn't be industrious and provide for themselves and their families. He said that we should not *initiate force* against other men.
So it's perfectly consistent to be a capitalist AND a Christian.

**Jack** · Jun 26, 2005, 06:57 pm

Wouldn't it be more intellectually honest to say, "Paul said Jesus said..." or "according to Matthew, Jesus said...". We don't have the foggiest idea of what Jesus may or may not have ever said, if anything. We only have the word of other people that he did. Ask any cop what he/she thinks about eye-witness testimony. It's the least credible, most inaccurate type of evidence there is. Circumstantial evidence ranks higher on the scale than eye-witness. And we have no circumstantial evidence of anything he may have said.

Jun 25, 2005, 03:47 pm	#54 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	He wasn't talking about taxes, he was talking about Roman-minted coins with a picture of Caesar on them being literally the property of Caeser. "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jun 26, 2005, 06:45 pm	#59 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	That's not quite right. Jesus never said that individuals shouldn't be industrious and provide for themselves and their families. He said that we should not initiate force against other men. So it's perfectly consistent to be a capitalist AND a Christian. "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jun 25, 2005, 08:17 am	#50 (permalink) (top)
Gary7 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 23	Jesus was a Capricorn.

Jun 25, 2005, 11:30 pm	#58 (permalink) (top)
Athena Volcanic Erupter Location: Oregon Posts: 5,174	You all can quibble over the silliest things. How about this, if you were to follow Jesus, you would walk away from your job and walk away from your family, and trust God to provide for you. You would chose to live as the lilies of the feild, and that makes conservative Christians anti Jesus. They freak out if their sons and daughters do not conform to capitalist values.

Jun 26, 2005, 06:57 pm	#60 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,741	Wouldn't it be more intellectually honest to say, "Paul said Jesus said..." or "according to Matthew, Jesus said...". We don't have the foggiest idea of what Jesus may or may not have ever said, if anything. We only have the word of other people that he did. Ask any cop what he/she thinks about eye-witness testimony. It's the least credible, most inaccurate type of evidence there is. Circumstantial evidence ranks higher on the scale than eye-witness. And we have no circumstantial evidence of anything he may have said.