Religion? Nah.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Agent007 Gorgo, I believe in the Judeo-Christian God, the Father of Christ; it makes no difference what I believe, since your position is still without any evidence.

My position is that there is no reasonable evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

You have completely ignored what I wrote about the white man's burden and its connection to Christianity as being entirely false, since what the white supremists consider Christianity is indeed not Christianity.

That is just one example of people using religion as an excuse for what they do. Good or bad. Superstition is not an inherently positive thing, and as it is a rejection of reality, it is inherently a negative thing.

Since you are the sole definer of what Christianity is, I remind you that the argument extends to any kind of supernaturalism.

All of the money donated by people to Mother Teresa's efforts was used for the direct benefit of poor people and the misfortunate; these benevolent few helped so many other people, yet it is somewhat alarming that their contributions are not appreciated by cynics and that some believe that they are demonic leeches who actually destroyed others.

No. This is a lie, further showing me that religion does not even help you see through lies.

[Agent007]

At times, religious wars are necessary among fanatics and those who do not want their ontologies to be disproven by more powerful and more accepted ones. Besides, those at "the receiving end" surely do not want their religions to be erased by others; however, if the other "end" is more powerful, then itsreligion is the one that eventually takes precedence. As some scientific people may call it, it is a sort of natural selection: when there is a religious conflict, only one side may be ultimately correct, if any side at all, but there must be some type of resolution. Those who are most powerful have their religions preserved. Besides, more political wars have been fought than religious ones. One might argue about Adolph Hitler's supremist war, but the views he expressed are not really Christianity but some other skewed form. The Crusades, on the other hand, were essential wars for survival between differing Christian and Muslim views; if they did not happen in the Holy Land, they would have inevitably happened in some other place. Of course, one might also argue that there were secular elements to it, such as the expansion of European power, but this element is also religious, for it may demonstrate the superiority of European Christianity over the Arabian Islam, or vice versa.

[Agent007]

Gorgo, I have noticed that you simply call my case a "lie" simply because it is labeled as religious; as I have mentioned before, your entire case has no evidence whatsoever. Your comments on Mother Teresa's alleged thievery, for instance, are entirely false according to reality. You must also realize that there is a difference between superstition and religion. Religion is guiding and true, while superstition is indeed a divergence from reality that is perhaps popularly accepted by some in a culture and is derived from no reason whatsoever. In fact, some religions, such as Roman Catholicism, condemn superstitious belief, such as that concerning the unluckiness of black cats or broken mirrors.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Agent007 Gorgo, I have noticed that you simply call my case a "lie" simply because it is labeled as religious; as I have mentioned before, your entire case has no evidence whatsoever. Your comments on Mother Teresa's alleged thievery, for instance, are entirely false according to reality. .

I didn't say that Mother Teresa stole anything, and as far as I know, she never said that she would help anyone with money that people sent, so she was not a liar. However, her hospitals were places where even those that were not dying went to die, not to be cured. She made no claims about actually hiring doctors and buying medicines, only that she would help people die. I can't say that she was a fraud, because I have no claims that she ever said she would help anyone, but people thought they were helping.

You keep saying that I have no evidence, but I've given evidence. Look it up yourself and find evidence that Mother Teresa ever did more than run a couple of orphanages and places for people to go and die that depended on local charity. She wouldn't even use the millions that was given her to feed the orphans. I don't know what she did in her early years, but her organization was described as a cult, and I see no apparent benefit to society from the millions that people all over the world gave her organization. Maybe you could ask for the books now that she's dead and provide some evidence.

[Agent007]

I find no evidence supporting your claims that Mother Teresa did not claim to be doing good in India. Perhaps you have been reading too many secular sources that skew the truth.

[Starboy]

Gorgo, don't you know. Christians can do no wrong, not even Christian saints. After all how can they become saints if it is not gods will? Of course god is nowhere to be seen in the process that looks exactly like a human political process but they are at least babbling about god so it becomes sacred and therefore infallible.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Agent007 I find no evidence supporting your claims that Mother Teresa did not claim to be doing good in India. Perhaps you have been reading too many secular sources that skew the truth.

You find no evidence of a negative. Amazing. I didn't say that she didn't claim to be doing what she thought was good. Do some research on some of these things that you seem to want to know something about.

[Matt W]

Besides, more political wars have been fought than religious ones.

*laughs* Agent, I'm sorry, but you really do not know your history.

Besides, those at "the receiving end" surely do not want their religions to be erased by others

Ok, what about such abominations as the Inquisition rather than religious wars? What about the persecution of the Jews throughout history?

[Starboy]

Matt, don't forget about the holy wars against Islam, and the systematic destruction of indigenous cultures by missionaries. And then there is the holocaust caused by the Spanish against Native Americans as the priest saved the heathens whether they wanted it or not. And that is just for starters. I can never figure out why any one would want to self identify as a Christian. They are not all that much better than Nazis.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083#Her

More on Teresa.

[Agent007]

Starboy, you have not read my previous posts. I have mentioned that Christians and other people do wrong and that religion is necessary to guide them away from these sins. Gorgo, you did write that Mother Teresa did not claim to be doing good; I did do research, but not on one of the biased sources you use. Mattw, what can be done about difference of opinion? It is impossible for there to be some type of secular "happy" world in which everyone agrees; people have different beliefs. Some people have differing natures, and if they are more powerful than others, they can easily wipe out their conflicting ontologies and are somewhat justified because their own ontology is preserved. It is not right for the two sides of a religious dispute to use negotiation and compromise to make a new religion that combines the two views; if this occurred, then the views of both sides of the argument would be obstructed. Religious conflict is a type of survival of the fittest.

[Matt W]

Starboy - I already asked about 'religious wars' in a previous post - hence Agents' reponse (post #42) citing them as 'a sort of natural selection'. I really couldn't help but laugh.

[Matt W]

Agent - I agree, differences of opinion happen. But a surprising amount of violent disagreements occur when you bring religion - any religion - into the equation, To claim otherwise is naiive.

[Agent007]

Gorgo, your "Slate" link literally has no information on it.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Agent007 Gorgo, your "Slate" link literally has no information on it.

That's kind of the point. There is no information about what Teresa did with all that money. She certainly didn't use it to help anyone do much other than suffer, which she thought was a good idea. Again, if you care, this is a starting point for you to look at this more. If you care you'll look. If you don't, you won't, and there's no point of me doing any more work so that you can just ignore it.

[Agent007]

No, there is absolutely nothing on the Slate website. There is no writing; there is only a maroon background. I have done research on unbiased sources, by the way, and find nothing supporting your contention.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Matt W Starboy - I already asked about 'religious wars' in a previous post - hence Agents' reponse (post #42) citing them as 'a sort of natural selection'. I really couldn't help but laugh.

Hey it is a start. It is a backhanded acceptance of a wider supernatural world which if followed to its logical conclusion can't help but end up in the rejection of supernaturalism.

It is also a backhanded acknowledgement of natural explanations over supernatural explanations. But the hocus pocus is still in their beady little brains. Maybe it will occur to them to ask exactly where is this supernatural selection taking place? In the natural world? Yes it is very funny.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Agent007 No, there is absolutely nothing on the Slate website. There is no writing; there is only a maroon background. I have done research on unbiased sources, by the way, and find nothing supporting your contention.

I have no problem with it. Maybe you're not waiting for it all to load.

[Athena]

Quote by: Agent007 Apparently, you all misunderstand me. Not always throughout human history have men and women been able to go about their lives in purity without a certain guidance. One may argue then that religion has become outdated and there is no longer a use for it. However, it is still morally enriching and can bring comfort to its followers; for instance, knowing that one will enter into everlasting life after death can be a comfort to one with a miserable life so that he or she becomes happy. One may argue that this religion presents an unhealthy alternate reality, but it actually is very beneficial. People would be more compelled by an organized religion and the assembly of other humans to give to the poor than they would by their own intrinsic belevolence, goodwill, and wisdom, which you are implying is present in everyone. For most people in the world, God guides lives and is inherently essential (this should be a general religious comment and should not be intrepreted as exclusive to Christians).

The culture for democracy does all the good things religion can do, and without all the bad stuff that goes with religion, superstition, inquistions, religous persecution, genecide and wars justified as the will of God, witch hunts, and closing people's minds so they are incapable of abstract and critical thinking, and fail to participate in self government, unless a moral issue is to be voted on. Someone said this is like Nazi Germany, yes, when we adopted the German model of education for technology and left moral training to the church, we stopped being united by culture and have social breakdown. We are reactionary as Germany was, and religious superstition along with occult superstition, has been unleashed like insects warmed by the sun. This is exactly like Nazi, Germany.

Religion teaches people what to think. Deomcracy teaches them how to think, and results in a higher morality. But we haven't had education for that since 1958.