To the Atheist: The Universe. By Chance or Design?

[SNPete]

The fact that the universe exists has nothing to do with how it came to exist or even why it should exist. To simply state the fact the universe does exist as a proof that it came to be by chance is a weak argument in face of scientific theory and logic. A better and more logical explanation is needed.

Science teaches that Order cannot rise out of Chaos. As a matter of fact there is a tendency for Order to flow toward Chaos over time. The universe and our very bodies are governed by laws, like the laws of Thermodynamics. Also consider mathematics, DNA, physics, etc.

Those of us, who are spiritually minded believe the universe came to be through the creative action of a deity. The Christian uses the argument “where there is a watch, there must be a watch maker”.

Our argument is based on this logic: Take all the parts that make up a Rolex watch and place them in a bag. Shake the bag, thus allowing chance to cause the parts to fall into their correct places and form a completed, functioning Rolex. How long do you suppose it would take for the functioning Rolex to be formed? We say never. What are the chances of this happening? We say zero or at the very least a zillion to one.

You heard our side of the story for a long time and you disagree. I have no problem with differences of opinion. But I have a true interest in why you believe what you do. So please tell those of us, who believe otherwise, why you believe the universe came to be without the action of a deity.

Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new!

Here is your chance to shine!

[Chalk]

I believe in there here and now. All I know is that the world exists and I exist. Why do I need to question why? I have aims and goals in life; once my life has run its course I'll die. Can you fault that logic?
I have no need in my life for religion, I personally see it as pointless, but interesting to discuss. I can't prove God does not exist, I don't know which faith is 'THE Right One', and quite frankly, I don't need to.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: SNPete “where there is a watch, there must be a watch maker”.

Old argument and lots of angles to refute it. Who made the watchmaker? Why is it necessary to create this more fantastic fiction to explain something you don't understand?

[kingjust]

Quote by: SNPete The fact that the universe exists has nothing to do with how it came to exist or even why it should exist. To simply state the fact the universe does exist as a proof that it came to be by chance is a weak argument in face of scientific theory and logic. A better and more logical explanation is needed. Science teaches that Order cannot rise out of Chaos. As a matter of fact there is a tendency for Order to flow toward Chaos over time. The universe and our very bodies are governed by laws, like the laws of Thermodynamics. Also consider mathematics, DNA, physics, etc. Those of us, who are spiritually minded believe the universe came to be through the creative action of a deity. The Christian uses the argument “where there is a watch, there must be a watch maker”. Our argument is based on this logic: Take all the parts that make up a Rolex watch and place them in a bag. Shake the bag, thus allowing chance to cause the parts to fall into their correct places and form a completed, functioning Rolex. How long do you suppose it would take for the functioning Rolex to be formed? We say never. What are the chances of this happening? We say zero or at the very least a zillion to one. You heard our side of the story for a long time and you disagree. I have no problem with differences of opinion. But I have a true interest in why you believe what you do. So please tell those of us, who believe otherwise, why you believe the universe came to be without the action of a deity. Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new! Here is your chance to shine!

Honestly SNPete, I don't know. IMO no one will ever know, and IMO again, those that claim to know are arrogant ignorrant miguided faith 'base jumpers'. I believed in the big bang and now I don't really care. It would be cool to know, even if it was by a higher being divulging information to us, and not by a book...maybe a seminar , that would be cool also. But all we do is theorize and follow (<-meant for the religious because they do not come up with original theories, they take something from a book and postulate earths creation. We don't really know, nor will we ever....for the time being.

(edit) I just thought about something, what if our hubble caught a glimpse of a planet being created. Would that probably answer everyones questions, or will it be considered a conspiracy? I think if that would ever come to pass, which i think will be soon with our ever growing observation technology.....(you can fill in the blank)

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete Science teaches that Order cannot rise out of Chaos. As a matter of fact there is a tendency for Order to flow toward Chaos over time. The universe and our very bodies are governed by laws, like the laws of Thermodynamics. Also consider mathematics, DNA, physics, etc.

Where do you get your science? Order can arise from a less ordered system as long as it is on an energy boundary. It is called non-equilibrium thermodynamics.

But there are several theories of the early universe the posit that the beginning of the universe was the result of a chance event. In any case the most successful theories of physics, QED/QM have at their very core the idea that nature is intrinsically random. There there is no such thing as pure determinism.

There are some explanations of dark matter and energy that posit that they are the result of purely random events at the plank scale.

I suggest that you take the time to learn some science before you use your demonstrated ignorance as if it were actual knowledge.

Those of us, who are spiritually minded believe the universe came to be through the creative action of a deity. The Christian uses the argument “where there is a watch, there must be a watch maker”. Our argument is based on this logic: Take all the parts that make up a Rolex watch and place them in a bag. Shake the bag, thus allowing chance to cause the parts to fall into their correct places and form a completed, functioning Rolex. How long do you suppose it would take for the functioning Rolex to be formed? We say never. What are the chances of this happening? We say zero or at the very least a zillion to one. You heard our side of the story for a long time and you disagree. I have no problem with differences of opinion. But I have a true interest in why you believe what you do. So please tell those of us, who believe otherwise, why you believe the universe came to be without the action of a deity. Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new! Here is your chance to shine!

The watchmaker argument has been beat to death. But then again if you were educated you would know that. The so called “watchmaker argument” is not an actual argument, it is an analogy and a very poor one at that. It has many problems not the least of which it assumes that in some sense a watch is like a universe.

Let us examine that presumption. Is a watch like a universe?

1) A watch does pretty much one thing.
– The universe has all sorts of things going on many if not most of which we are unawares of.

2) Most of what comprises a watch is there to accomplish that one thing.
– A very, very, very, very tiny, itsy bitsy, miniscule, microscopic portion of the universe has anything to do with us.

3) There is an obvious use for what a watch does.
– nobody has figured out what a universe is used for or what it does. After all it has existed for 13.5 billion years before we showed up and will exist at least as many more billions of years after we are gone and if we are lucky our span of existence may be 10 million years. To claim that the universe exists for us would be like claiming that my house exists for the fly that just flew into the door and then is killed.

4) We can go and look at watches being made.
– No one has ever seen a universe being built.

5) There are people who tell you to your face that they make watches.
– If anyone told you that they made the universe to your face you would not believe them and if they persisted you would think they were crazy.

6) The history of the watch can be traced independently of watch advocates. A person who has never used a watch in their entire lives can come up with pretty much the same history as a rabid watch advocate.
– The only history of the universe that can be traced is the account given by science and it can be done independently.

7) The history of the watch is well accepted. There are no wildly varying stories about the creation of the watch from different groups.
– there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of groups that give wildly varying accounts.

I could go on but just this is enough to see that a watch is not anything like a universe. There is no reason to think that what we know about the creation of watches can at all be applied to the universe. To make such a comparison is a leap of faith. And this is just a small portion of what is wrong with the watchmaker argument.

Starboy

[belverron]

Quote by: Starboy – If anyone told you that they made the universe to your face you would not believe them and if they persisted you would think they were crazy.

Or the Second Coming, eh?

[tman_ndsu08]

why you believe the universe came to be without the action of a deity.

No one can ever know if it did or if it didn't. Anyone who claims to have proof otherwise is a liar.

[Starboy]

Quote by: belverron Or the Second Coming, eh?

Funny thing about that. If a Christian was told that there was an itinerant bum down the street that was doing magic tricks and claimed to be the son of god they would not believe it either.

Starboy

[SNPete]

Quote by: Starboy Funny thing about that. If a Christian was told that there was an itinerant bum down the street that was doing magic tricks and claimed to be the son of god they would not believe it either. Starboy

Starboy, sometimes you say something that is quite true.

[belverron]

No one can ever know if it did or if it didn't.

Talk about limiting....

[rez]

Quote by: SNPete The fact that the universe exists has nothing to do with how it came to exist or even why it should exist. To simply state the fact the universe does exist as a proof that it came to be by chance is a weak argument in face of scientific theory and logic. A better and more logical explanation is needed.

To be able to say that there once was a begining is quite bold of you. I, as a human being can only understand cause/effect and time/space, but since the universe is so huge I am inclined to say I am ignorant and do not know much about what is going on in reality.

Quote by: SNPete Science teaches that Order cannot rise out of Chaos. As a matter of fact there is a tendency for Order to flow toward Chaos over time. The universe and our very bodies are governed by laws, like the laws of Thermodynamics. Also consider mathematics, DNA, physics, etc.

I do not know WHY natural selection occures and neither do you.

Quote by: SNPete Those of us, who are spiritually minded believe the universe came to be through the creative action of a deity. The Christian uses the argument “where there is a watch, there must be a watch maker”.

Like I said before: you only know cause/effect and space/time, so you are inclined to believe in a begining and an ending.

Quote by: SNPete Our argument is based on this logic: Take all the parts that make up a Rolex watch and place them in a bag. Shake the bag, thus allowing chance to cause the parts to fall into their correct places and form a completed, functioning Rolex. How long do you suppose it would take for the functioning Rolex to be formed? We say never. What are the chances of this happening? We say zero or at the very least a zillion to one.

haha are you serious? how can you compare the construction of a WATCH with NATURE? The universe has been around for a long time, so something random happening is quite possible.

Quote by: SNPete You heard our side of the story for a long time and you disagree. I have no problem with differences of opinion. But I have a true interest in why you believe what you do. So please tell those of us, who believe otherwise, why you believe the universe came to be without the action of a deity.

I am just trying to understand why I am here.

Quote by: SNPete Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new! Here is your chance to shine!

Nobody should believe in God simply because the concept of GOD is far beyond the imagination of any human. There are so many things to learn on earth. I for one enjoy thinking about what goes through the mind of a dog or even an ant. Does anybody know what goes through an ants head? To be able to understand the awarness of nature is far more fulfulling then reading the Bible. I rather start with what I do not know and work my way up. For some reason "religious" people like knowing there is an all powerful God that created everything, but do not realize they Dont know ANYTHING AT ALL. The fact is pete you know nothing, but you think you know everything. This is egotistical and foolish and it looks like GOD would not like that one bit.


I just dont believe the world I live in today is the center of the universe.......for some reason you do......it is because you are egotistical.

[SNPete]

Rez, you will be happy to know that I don’t know everything, but I do know a lot about theology. What I don’t know a lot about or understand is the atheist point of view. My hope with this thread was to get input from atheist saying why they believe what they do. Something beyond the usual “People who believe in God are idiots and fools” type of statement.

So far only Starboy has given me any kind of proactive answer. Of course he had to remind me, once again, that I am an uneducated fool. Hey, ya gotta love that guy!

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete Of course he had to remind me, once again, that I am an uneducated fool.

Aren't we all, some more than others?

Starboy

[belverron]

Quote by: SNPete My hope with this thread was to get input from atheist saying why they believe what they do.

Religion seems impossible. I have a certain envy of faithful people and people who can whistle: I can't be either. I just don't seem to have the capability. And believe me, if I had ever felt God touch me, I would want Him to be a part of my life. But I haven't felt that, would never be able to convince myself otherwise without feeling some kind of encouragement from Him.

[Thunder Wave]

Perhaps there is a scientifically researched source called energy that could take on many forms and exist endlessly without a life or a death but just pure existence. Perhaps this energy grows life. Perhaps this energy, Einstein referred, to is just that. Endless. Where would any life be without this energy and did "God" make this energy or is this energy called "God" because it burns in your soul when you drink the sacrament wine?

Just a thought? Hmmmmm....................

[cheesenuggett]

Quote by: Thunder Wave Perhaps there is a scientifically researched source called energy that could take on many forms and exist endlessly without a life or a death but just pure existence. Perhaps this energy grows life. Perhaps this energy, Einstein referred, to is just that. Endless. Where would any life be without this energy and did "God" make this energy or is this energy called "God" because it burns in your soul when you drink the sacrament wine? Just a thought? Hmmmmm....................

thats a nice though... but will be quickly shot down

i actually think that could explain why god is an 'all being' instead of having a form or figure...

[asterix404]

Here is my fun opinion. IN the quantum universe there is something called tunneling where an He+2 molecule or a beta particle pass through an infinite potentional well. That is where there is a well much like this"

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On either side of the barrier there is an infinate potental energy, basicly no particle can exist out side of the box. This is about the same as an atom located in a vacume. Now the funny thing about this is that something happens called tunneling. This is becasue there is a slight probibility that a particle can go outside of the box, the father away it goes... the less chance it is of being there. Before particle physics came about and bohr and plank made thier discoveries no one would listen to them and call them liars and say that they were full of it. But this explaned something very very important and something that clasical physics couldn't possibly ever explain. Radiation... This explained why an alpha particle exists inside of a nucleus, how it can, what the chances of it coming out and how far it will go.

This brings me to the watch... if I mash up a watch and run it through a bag given a very very long time... assuming it could all snap together and such and every pice fell into place... there is a probibility that it will occur. That probibilty is about the same as a particle passing through a potential wall and traviling a very very long distance. It happens... this can do.

Order and chaos... I don't know if christians believe in atomic structures but they believe in god which they can't see so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know photons exist. There was an experiment done called the young double slit experiment and the mutiple experiment where you shine a laser through a difraction grating which is a whole lot of slits and you see what happens. Well this was studied and studied and everything was happy... but then photons came about. What did they do. Well a guy decdied to spend his free time taking pictures of individual photons. He had an extreamly dark room, very few photons coming out of his laser, and he mapped out where they fell on a pice of highly desncative photographic papper. The first dozen or so fell randomly, without any form of order what so ever. The next 100 or so fell about the same, scattered all over the page. Around a 1000 you could start seeing dark places where no photon hit... at 10000-1 million the bars that are seen with a laser were clearly visable and the difraction patters were what they should be mathematicially. This is oder through chaos. It happens, I have seen it... I have never seen an act of god. I have seen the effects of particle physics, and I know why they happen. No one has answered with any degree why photons do what they do. No one can explain why they are both a particle and a wave at the same time. Do I say that this means there is no god... no... but I say that becasue of this very minor event and very simple one, something much more complex could happen. We don't even know what universe we are in... given the expanding and contracting theroys of the universe, wehre if it's ever expanding gravity will cease to exist and we will become infinitly far away from anything and thus all beings will die. Or it can colapse.... but honestly I don't care much about that sort of thing. I don't see a god in my work, I don't see a god in my play... I don't see a reason why god would bother to do anything like this... or even pay atention. I have seen 3.5 billion year old cells. I think that was shit luck... a lot of phsyics is dependant on shit luck. There is a whole field of probibility physics that studies shit luck all day long. Sure... there are people who study god all day long and can debate me to death but at the end, they are saying hte same things... and I am forming new ideas. I am sorry if this seems slightly complicated, it is... I think thats more further proof that saying that god did it is BS.

[BaldEagle]

While I respect both sides of this argument, it is clear that both are so incomplete that the argument is moot. Creationism, Big Bang, they are both preposterous but at the same time both are valid (at least equally as valid). What if it turns aout that both are valid? Will half of the people be pissed off? Will the other half claim they were more correct than the other? That is just ridiculous. I got about 20-30 more years here and I do not have time to worry about this. If the Big Bang is right, then nothing really matters. If creationism is right, then I will go to hell with the knowledge that I excercised my GOD given right to make choices and decisions (and yeah, I'll probably be pissed off for being punished for exercising my rights), just as you will go to heaven under the same premise (and be blissful).

As a side note (actually bottom note) I have been undergoing treatment for leukemia for 2.5 years. I am most likely going to beat it (there are no assurances with any cancer) but I am doing good now. I should live out my life normaly with the exception that I will require treatment til the end. I have studied this disease and the circulatory and lymphatic systems for a while now and I must admit the complexity of these systems is mind boggling. It seems to be a stretch to conclude that it was accidental. No, I have not been BORN AGAIN. But, I do admit I am beginning to have doubts about randomness being reponsible for all that we know. But the last statement in the previous paragraph still applies.

[Thunder Wave]

Politely though asterix404, it doesn't disprove God's existence. It proves that If God is in charge than he is genious when it comes to Physics and Chemistry, etc.

And why not? If I wanted an all knowing being in charge, I would hope he know how to work Scientifically. I mean Bible aside and all other Books about God, why can't there be a "God" who knows how to work with all things, psychology, Chemistry, Physics, etc.

I would hate to even Imagine what would happen if this All knowing God didn't know all of this.

So if that is truth, God knows all, than why couldn't he/she/it(energy) have created life with SCIENCE!?

That is if there is a God. I have thought upon this all my life. Is God a Man/Woman/Energy or just science at its best?

Like the Myths and the Many gods of Greek Mythology, all used to explain what science/philosophy could not.

[Prometheus]

(1) Science is currently unable to explain to origins of the universe.
(2) Religion is currently unable to explain to origins of the universe.

What we do know: We don't know.

However, the partial scientific explination seems more feasable...