Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Gorgo · Jun 14, 2005, 06:16 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

I am sure this has not occured to you but you come off as being obnoxious to me.

This reminds me of Madalyn Murray O'Hare. Now, I don't doubt that she had negative qualities, but on Phil Donahue's show, she was always very polite and very matter of fact. Not cheery always, but polite and Christians would scream and cry at her and she was somehow the one that was acting terribly.

It's time we stood up and acknowledged that people who hate reality are the ones that have the problem, not those that try to appreciate reality.

Starboy · Jun 14, 2005, 08:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Agent007

I am sorry to read what you have to write Starboy, but you should be tolerant of others as well. Do not try to put use your intolerance and promote your atheist agenda.

And what atheist agenda is that? To promote reason? To promote exploration? To promote the discovery of even better explanations of reality? To promote freedom? To promote honesty? Exactly what do you think my agenda is? Unless of course you have come to realize that these goals and principles are the antithesis of supernatural religion.

Starboy

asterix404 · Jun 14, 2005, 11:37 pm

HAHA an atheist adgenda... I am sooo happy... hmm.. I like sex, that must be athiest, has to be since every athiest I know loves it! Lets go for food... I know I know... you could say that everyone loves it but boy it must be athiest cuz shit I see em eating all the time! Look at that... God damn you people bitch alot about athiests. Personal bieliefs are what makes us human and gives us an urge and a formation of who we are. My work at McDonalds made me think that there could be no just and loving god cuz if there was one my mom and I wouldn't ever work there. If you don't like to study science then arrogance and no knonlage is not an excuse for you not learning it. I gave you reasons why I don't see a god or any sort of devinve intervention... I see a buntch of forulas, Differential Equations, Partial Differential equations... things that explain why a bird can fly and why air going over a wing creates lift. I have seen resonence frequencies in 3D bodies of motion with 7 or more variables makeing up a differential equation. Did you know that the earth has resonence frequences... and do you have any idea how hard it is to describe a sphearical object buldging in an infinate amount of ways? The equations take up pages and the programs that are used are immence. I know, this is my intern job at Harvard Univ. I work with heuge amounts of data showing what the earth does. People say that god exists because everything is sooo preety... then explain to me a non hmogenious 3rd dregree nonlinear partial differential equation... I have a whole slew of 2 degree ones... and even then there are about 3 that have been solved analitically... the rest have been proven unsolvable. Hell a 3 body problem has NO anlyitcal solution... thats been proven by this silly thing called math. Math has been around since before ... hell people. It has been around for millions of years... sure it started off in simple things like how many rocks do I have, but still... it has worked itself into something that we have never seen before and Physicists are scrambling to come up with new and exciting suggestions.

DO YOU KNOW HOW I WAS ANSWERED FOR THIS!!!! God must have done it becasue gods all knowing.

HUH? I laid out some of the most complicated math in the world... that has taken brilliant minds decaids to solve.. and you say to me god did it all... SURE! Why the hell not... and while you start your car thank god cuz it did that too... as well as invent tooth paste and soap, dishwashers, indoor plumbing, paint, art, all TV's... all of those brand names are really just god... that Gerogeo Armini Suit... sure god did that too... and every car from an Astin Martin to a yugo. Lets even go for writen words as well as almost all physical featurs. Hell I CAME FROM GOD! Can you see why I am very anoyed at people trying to argue with me? Every single time I have a good point to make they fall back on 3 things

1)God is always right.
2)God is always right because it's written in the bible
3)God wrote the bible and thus is always right....

STOP IT! Thats not a debate about reasons or philophsy and any other people or thing trying to do the same thing would get pounced upon. I am not going to debate word semantics with you... this post has come this far and I am scientist not a lit major. I do however have a rather good understanding of the basics of physics... nothing too great but a good start... and very quickly you see none of it is preety... the delta of f =ma in spearical poloar corridents is about 3 lines of solid partials... and very ugly ones at that. The watchmaker thing was never refuted and I am concered that people who are flinging names can not even back up their own reasons or thoughts. I have my math... it's not a religion, it's fact. It's proven when you wake up and want a cup of coffie.. when you get into a car... or ride the bus. Does this proove that god does not exist... HELL NO! I think that there are deffinitly forces that we can not see taste or touch. There are forces we don't have sences for. There are particles called pi messons, they have a half life of about 6 micro seconds, they travil at .995c. Then they decay, just about the distance from the atmostphear to the earth surface. A single messon can travil for far longer distances going the same speed... but the probibilty gets very very low. But they do it... just like radiation, just like how the universe possibly formed. In physics there are things that are so rare that it's improbible that they happen... lasers... forbidden states of electrons... but they happen. This is what math and science has thought me that the unexpected does happen... and anything can happen for any number of reasons. The probibility that there are what like 9 planets... possibly 10 planets in our soler system... why 10? Why not 15... or 2.5? Why only one sun... why not a burnt out sun... and have 3 of them! Pagans, monothiesists, athiests, any other person can not possibly answer these questions...

Your beiliefs are held in an achient book filled with fairy tails and day dreems... with truth and known facts strewn between. Panganism is at least worshiping something that exists... agnostics are searching and maby forever will be searching which is wonderful since questions are such a great thing to ask. Athisets ... don't see god in every day life. They do seem to grasp the idea of a higher being at least most of them do but not a mainsteam god(s)(ess)(essses) perhaps because one has not been presented to them that they like. BUT YOU JUST SPENT A WHOLE PAGE SAYING THAT ATHIESM WAS DISBIELIEF IN GOD! Who cares... who knows... did you write the dictionaries? If I goto the bible doesn't it say that they are sinners... what kinda deffinition is that? It's like trying to define polotical parties... you can only give gross generaities... don't try to define something you can never ever undestand. To all you chirstian and offshoots... you are fixated around a book... it's a book, thats all it is... and it blinds you so that you can not see rantional argumens without getting pissed off. god or God or GOD or G_D or g_d... what difference does it make you know what we are talking about, which is kinda amusing since I have no idea.

And another thing.... I have never seen or herd any ahtiest try to push his or her bielief in this fourm... I have never herd an athiest make a statement based purely on faith. I have NEVER made a statement without at least an incling of proof to back it up. Do not even try to put a label on me for you will never succeade, and I will not put a lable on you that you have no already placed on yourself. None of you are stupid, a lot are arrogant but thats expected in a fourm, and you have the rights to your own opinions... but please try to look at this from an open mind since that was what the posters idea was... I have been trying but I just got fed up with all the bull shit about A meaning not or whatever or non being no... it's a fucked up launguage with people who I don't even know defining words I have never even heard of. No excuse I am sure... but people try and fail to give good deffinitions all the time.

and btw if you don't like my spelling since I know that my post is going to get flamed for it.. shut up and pm me... cuz thats just a week debating style.

Starboy · Jun 14, 2005, 11:46 pm

asterisk404, what ever you do, do not let them know about the evil atheist society bent on the destruction of the world organization. Oh and never let them see our secret handshake.

Starboy

asterix404 · Jun 14, 2005, 11:55 pm

you mean this one? ::shakes hand::

Starboy · Jun 15, 2005, 08:05 am

Quote:

Quote by: asterix404

you mean this one? ::shakes hand::

Dang! You are not supposed to show them that handshake! It reveals our hidden secret. That we are only human.

Starboy

randall patrick · Jun 16, 2005, 11:11 pm

PETE:

Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new!

Here is your chance to shine!

RP:

You and I both know that no one in this forum will be able to demonstrate unequivocally whether or not there is a God.

But in a philosophy forum [as opposed to, say, Sunday School] if someone proposes that something is true it is their responsibilty to demonstrate this is so.

So, if there is a God and your God just happens to be the God....demonstrate it.

Also, if your God does exist then how do you explain the recent tsunami in South Asian, the fact that 80% of all pregnancies end spontaeously in abortion, that a new born baby can come into the world afflicted with any one of over 3,000 genetic defects, that 680,000,000 children aged 5 years and younger died in agfony from starvation in just the 20th century etc etc etc.

If that is an example of an intelligent design can you imagine how screwed up the world would be if God was autistic?

In other words, even if you could demonstrate his existence we are not exactly talking about a God who gives a crap about us, right?

Finally, if God exists and he is omnscient then everything any mere mortal thinks or says or does can only be an inherent manifestatiin of this. Therefore human autonomy and free will cannot exist and therefore we cannot be held morally responsible for anything we say or do.

God exists? Maybe. But who in his right mind would worship and adore him in this world?

Flocks of sheep, of course.

rp

Giglap · Jun 16, 2005, 11:53 pm

Quote:

Quote by: asterix404

Around a 1000 you could start seeing dark places where no photon hit... at 10000-1 million the bars that are seen with a laser were clearly visable and the difraction patters were what they should be mathematicially. This is oder through chaos. It happens, I have seen it...

Order is not at issue. The relevance of entropy in this topic, is it's effect on complexity.

SNPete · Jun 16, 2005, 11:53 pm

Quote:

Quote by: randall patrick

PETE:

Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new!

Here is your chance to shine!

RP:

You and I both know that no one in this forum will be able to demonstrate unequivocally whether or not there is a God.

But in a philosophy forum [as opposed to, say, Sunday School] if someone proposes that something is true it is their responsibilty to demonstrate this is so.

So, if there is a God and your God just happens to be the God....demonstrate it.

Also, if your God does exist then how do you explain the recent tsunami in South Asian, the fact that 80% of all pregnancies end spontaeously in abortion, that a new born baby can come into the world afflicted with any one of over 3,000 genetic defects, that 680,000,000 children aged 5 years and younger died in agfony from starvation in just the 20th century etc etc etc.

If that is an example of an intelligent design can you imagine how screwed up the world would be if God was autistic?

In other words, even if you could demonstrate his existence we are not exactly talking about a God who gives a crap about us, right?

Finally, if God exists and he is omnscient then everything any mere mortal thinks or says or does can only be an inherent manifestatiin of this. Therefore human autonomy and free will cannot exist and therefore we cannot be held morally responsible for anything we say or do.

God exists? Maybe. But who in his right mind would worship and adore him in this world?

Flocks of sheep, of course.

rp

Geez man! What is with you atheists. I ask in this one particular thread to give support-a logical agrument- to support your view and all I get is the same old tired statements. The best you can do is paint a God, you don't even believe in, as evil and then ask me to prove you wrong. What a waste of time! If you have any real interest, read my previous posts.

You guys always say:

1. There is noGod
2. If there is a God, He has to be evil.
3. I want no part of God.

Nothing like an open mind. Too bad you can't change reality.

Heed the words of some of the few smart atheists:

1. From Ricksp: I have never been overly fond of the "problem of evil" argument, not because it lacks validity but because it is unnecessary. I see no compelling evidence for the existence of god, so the fact that the problem of evil undos some of the major theology seems rather beside the point.

2.Starboy: Neither have I. It is not exaclty an atheist argument. An atheist would never even try to fathom the properties of god until there was a god to fathom.

Stick to topics that you know about.

Starboy · Jun 17, 2005, 12:17 am

SNPete, perhaps you would like to advance the debate.

Quote:

Quote by: SNPete

Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new!

Here is another one: competing explanations.

1) We all see the universe.
2) We all want to explain it.

God is one explanation. Science is another. There are others.

What criterion should be used to prefer one explanation over another?

It is not as if science has not in its history considered the god explanation. Why do you think it is no longer considered to be a preferred explanation of science?

Starboy

SNPete · Jun 17, 2005, 01:06 am

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

SNPete, perhaps you would like to advance the debate.

Here is another one: competing explanations.

1) We all see the universe.
2) We all want to explain it.

God is one explanation. Science is another. There are others.

What criterion should be used to prefer one explanation over another?

It is not as if science has not in its history considered the god explanation. Why do you think it is no longer considered to be a preferred explanation of science?

Starboy

Truthfully, Starboy, it all boils down to what we believe. Each of us needs to look at what we believe and ask ourselves why we believe what we do. Can we honestly say to ourselves that we believe what we do, because we have examined all sides of the issue and arrived at our place of belief with an open mind.

So why is it that some of us say there is a God and others don't? I assume that you and I have approached the issue of God with the above criteria. So why do we see things different? I wax philosphical. Maybe, for a moment, we should put aside our views on the matter of God and explore why we see the issue of God different.

Issue 2, science. I think science moved away from God, because for years superstition and religion were tied together and science despelled superstition. Science is only interested in the proveable. Since God cannot be proved, science does not want to deal with God. Even though superstition is gone science still views religion with skepticism. Science can't explain everything. Neither can religion. I believe that science and religion together can expain everything. Science the how and religion the why. Anyway, what do you think?

I am going to bed now. Talk to you tomorrow.

Starboy · Jun 17, 2005, 01:19 am

I think you need to learn more about science. Science chose other explanation than god because it has a criterion for preferring explanations. It has experiment on nature. If there are two competing explanations one can try to figure out what they say should happen, you can find where they differ and you can go look at nature to see which does the better job. If you apply this to your explanations over an over and over you get explanations that do increasingly better jobs at making predictions about reality.

Fact is, explanations based on supernatural constructs like god suck when compared to many other explanations.

The issue really boils down to this. God advocates have put forth an explanation of reality based on supernatural constructs. If they claim that these constructs are real then they are open to investigation. If what they can predict is no better than no explanation at all then one must ask oneself, "Why are you holding to god as an explanation for anything?"

There is a basic conflict between religion and science since religion claims to explain reality and science tries to explain reality and the explanations are not matching. They are not matching at all. Something is very rotten. However everyone knows that science does a dang fine job at what it can explain, you are typing on just one of millions of examples. If god sucks at explaining reality then what are god advocates using it for? You and I both know that answer.

Starboy

asterix404 · Jun 17, 2005, 09:20 pm

HOLY SHIT! It happend again... complexity... alright... so instead of takeing the light example which is one of the most complicated things in all of physics to describe it being a self propagating wave at such high speads that it's increadable, the mathematics behind it ... well here 1 / sqrt(epp0 * mu 0)... now lets deal with mathmatical applications... involing open line integrals ... intence partial diffs... and thats only in the nice plane. Now you did what I really hate... and I don't know why you get your jollies this way... you took my entire argument and broke it down into one thing that you don't undertsnad... that I dont understand and that very few phycists truly do understand... but people do. I don't care if god exists or not... I don't care if it's a voilent god... if there is a god... if there is it doesn't care about us. I am a mear mortal, I have a shelf life... I am going to spend it trying to understand the world not make up BS about everything I dont understand and calling it gods willing. You ignore all poitns that I make and call me stupid for having them no less becasue you think it's wierd that I don't worship your god. Nothing will work with this debate. I have told you how I feal and why I do and the best you can come up with is "oh it's too hard god must have done it", except that that argument keeps on dieing with such wonderful people as Neuton and Galalaeo and Enstien... Plank, Gauss, Avagadro, Hawking... this is science... this is not dissproving or proving god... you can twist all data you feal like to show whatever you want... but it's the math that is flawed. My whole point is this: I can not see feal touch taste or acnolage any form of god. I see feal touch taste and acknolage math and physics and chemestry biology...and the like. I ask you for proof and you give me it's too complex for random events. Light does random events and eventuilly bcomes ordered and predictable... it does this in some of the most complex systems in the universe. Debate me?

SNPete · Jun 17, 2005, 11:48 pm

Quote:

Quote by: asterix404

HOLY SHIT! It happend again... complexity... alright... so instead of takeing the light example which is one of the most complicated things in all of physics to describe it being a self propagating wave at such high speads that it's increadable, the mathematics behind it ... well here 1 / sqrt(epp0 * mu 0)... now lets deal with mathmatical applications... involing open line integrals ... intence partial diffs... and thats only in the nice plane. Now you did what I really hate... and I don't know why you get your jollies this way... you took my entire argument and broke it down into one thing that you don't undertsnad... that I dont understand and that very few phycists truly do understand... but people do. I don't care if god exists or not... I don't care if it's a voilent god... if there is a god... if there is it doesn't care about us. I am a mear mortal, I have a shelf life... I am going to spend it trying to understand the world not make up BS about everything I dont understand and calling it gods willing. You ignore all poitns that I make and call me stupid for having them no less becasue you think it's wierd that I don't worship your god. Nothing will work with this debate. I have told you how I feal and why I do and the best you can come up with is "oh it's too hard god must have done it", except that that argument keeps on dieing with such wonderful people as Neuton and Galalaeo and Enstien... Plank, Gauss, Avagadro, Hawking... this is science... this is not dissproving or proving god... you can twist all data you feal like to show whatever you want... but it's the math that is flawed. My whole point is this: I can not see feal touch taste or acnolage any form of god. I see feal touch taste and acknolage math and physics and chemestry biology...and the like. I ask you for proof and you give me it's too complex for random events. Light does random events and eventuilly bcomes ordered and predictable... it does this in some of the most complex systems in the universe. Debate me?

Huh? Your point? What a ramble. Care to clairify? Damn, you have poor spelling. I know, don't post when you're drunk! Tell me, at which post did you lose it? Care to talk about it?

rez · Jun 18, 2005, 02:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: SNPete

Truthfully, Starboy, it all boils down to what we believe. Each of us needs to look at what we believe and ask ourselves why we believe what we do. Can we honestly say to ourselves that we believe what we do, because we have examined all sides of the issue and arrived at our place of belief with an open mind.

so you are saying that you found comfort in believing God......so your body gives you good feelings.......Thinking about something gives you good feelings............I am glad you recieve atleas some physical pleasure from your imaginary friend....I guess you arent that insane.

Quote:

Quote by: SNPete

So why is it that some of us say there is a God and others don't? I assume that you and I have approached the issue of God with the above criteria. So why do we see things different? I wax philosphical. Maybe, for a moment, we should put aside our views on the matter of God and explore why we see the issue of God different.

Maybe because Starboy is more cynical, understands that the universe is complex, and that God is so far down the line of understanding.

What do you do in your every day life SNpete? During your dailylife, what clues indicate that God is out there? Eating? Sleeping? Pooping? Your life is so basic that the truth of God is no where to be found. If you want to find God, hop on the science band wagen, because scientists are making a proactive movement to find the truth of reality. Now of course I am talking about the same reality this God of your's designed. So, like I said if you really want to know God start reading science shit. I don't think you are using the best of your human abilities that your creator gave you, so I instead of PRAYING 5 hail mary's and reading a 2000 year old story tail - get your lazy ass up and read a biology book or two and actually have to try and put hard brain work so you could understand it.

Quote:

Quote by: SNPete

Issue 2, science. I think science moved away from God, because for years superstition and religion were tied together and science despelled superstition. Science is only interested in the proveable. Since God cannot be proved, science does not want to deal with God. Even though superstition is gone science still views religion with skepticism. Science can't explain everything. Neither can religion. I believe that science and religion together can expain everything. Science the how and religion the why. Anyway, what do you think?

I am going to bed now. Talk to you tomorrow.

Science the how and religion the why?

Science will find your God before you do; then when scientist's find your god they are going to ask the same question as religion......why? SNpete asks if the scientists would look back on religions out take? or would they be closed mind and not think about it? And to tell you the truth Pete, I sure as fuck would, so you should take your closed minded liberal ideas and shuve it up your ass. But like I said, my day doesnt even compare to a day in God's shoes, so I aint worried about it. Thinking about God is evil - it gives me headaches. It is funny I expierence physical pain from thinking about something that has the same random chance of happening, ya know, like a broken up watch being, shaken in a bag, and perfectly assembled.

So what you going to say about my argument? Scientists wont find God first because God will keep changing the Universe? I guess scientists will go to hell since God don't like them...For christ sakes, for some reason they are not allowed to find him. I am sorry Pete, go do your cult thing while I do my smoke thing.

Giglap · Jun 18, 2005, 08:37 am

The lack of civility in this debate is discouraging .

Quote:

so you are saying that you found comfort in believing God......so your body gives you good feelings.......Thinking about something gives you good feelings............I am glad you recieve atleas
some physical pleasure from your imaginary friend....I guess you arent that insane.

I'm thinking it's the anonymity of the forum that allows people to speak in ways that would be completely unacceptable normal society.

SNPete · Jun 18, 2005, 09:59 am

Quote:

Quote by: rez

So what you going to say about my argument? Scientists wont find God first because God will keep changing the Universe? I guess scientists will go to hell since God don't like them...For christ sakes, for some reason they are not allowed to find him. I am sorry Pete, go do your cult thing while I do my smoke thing.

Rez,

So you find comfort in drugs and I find comfort in God. Well that says something about you and something about me. I would say if a person needs drugs then there must be something missing in their life. Personally, I haven’t smoked anything in 15 years. God is much more fun and satisfying than drugs!

I am truly sorry that my being a Christian causes you such anger. I am curious why someone else’s beliefs affects you like that. Do you feel anger towards other types of people who think different than you do? I hope not.

rez · Jun 18, 2005, 10:02 am

Quote:

Quote by: Giglap

The lack of civility in this debate is discouraging .

I'm thinking it's the anonymity of the forum that allows people to speak in ways that would be completely unacceptable normal society.

ok hypocrite. Do you follow rules? I only ask because I feel it should be one of the first things thought about when functioning in a normal society? Right? It is ashame, you can not even pass the first rule.......

no insults - idiot
no rude one-liners - you're wrong.
READ THE RULES - WHAT are them "rules"?

Yeah so instead of busting out a one line sentence with NO Supporting evidence I suggest you stop lying to yourself and post something I can respond to, other then YOUR LACK of POST....got it?

P.S. just so we keep on track....which I know you want........................God does not like you - he told me.

Agent007 · Jun 18, 2005, 10:03 am

Rez, most of the science you are writing about consists of unproven theories such as that of evolution; your belief in them is just like one's belief in a religion. Thus, when you insult SNPete and others like him, you are indeed insulting yourself, even though you think that you are the rational one and we are the magical and societally inappropriate ones. Besides, it is not as if everything in your suggested biology book is in conflict with religious thoughts; by the way, "eating," "sleeping," and "pooping" are all biological functions, and, according to your credentials and assumedly high intelligence should be explained by you and will not bring us closer to God as we "do our cult thing."
By the way Rez, what is the point of your last post? Now who is the hypocrite?

rez · Jun 18, 2005, 10:27 am

Quote:

Quote by: SNPete

Rez,

So you find comfort in drugs and I find comfort in God. Well that says something about you and something about me. I would say if a person needs drugs then there must be something missing in their life. Personally, I haven’t smoked anything in 15 years. God is much more fun and satisfying than drugs!

I am truly sorry that my being a Christian causes you such anger. I am curious why someone else’s beliefs affects you like that. Do you feel anger towards other types of people who think different than you do? I hope not.

it is actually quite funny and ironic that God and Drugs are being compared together. My body gives me good feelings when I smoke a joint and your body gives you good feelings when you pray....we both enjoy these feelings and keep coming for more...yet you say "if a person needs drugs then there must be something missing in their life" ;however, you do not state what is missing in my life. To be able to even state what that sentence means you must know a couple of things I lack in life, right? You seem to be on to something, so please tell me what I am lacking in life that you are gaining....

Let us look and see...I have been attending catholic school for 13 years and HAVE NOT once come accross ANYbody like you...why? I mean why couldnt the RA, that is practicing to become a priest, I had in my freshman year in University tell me about God the same way you do? Or the 13 religion teachers I had? Or any of my class mates?

Maybe it is you that is lacking something because your concept of God is far more primitative then I had ever learned in my 13 years of attending Catholic school.

St Matthews grade school 1-8
Father Judge Highschool for boys: 9 - 12
LaSalle University: 13-16

step back, recoil, and retract my friend....I do not hate christians.....I do not hate you...you just suck at conveying Gods message because you cant even agree among your own section of Religion.....God the inventer of language must of really fucked up because I dont know who to believe anymore.

Jun 14, 2005, 11:37 pm	#83 (permalink) (top)
asterix404 Igneous Magma Posts: 257	HAHA an atheist adgenda... I am sooo happy... hmm.. I like sex, that must be athiest, has to be since every athiest I know loves it! Lets go for food... I know I know... you could say that everyone loves it but boy it must be athiest cuz shit I see em eating all the time! Look at that... God damn you people bitch alot about athiests. Personal bieliefs are what makes us human and gives us an urge and a formation of who we are. My work at McDonalds made me think that there could be no just and loving god cuz if there was one my mom and I wouldn't ever work there. If you don't like to study science then arrogance and no knonlage is not an excuse for you not learning it. I gave you reasons why I don't see a god or any sort of devinve intervention... I see a buntch of forulas, Differential Equations, Partial Differential equations... things that explain why a bird can fly and why air going over a wing creates lift. I have seen resonence frequencies in 3D bodies of motion with 7 or more variables makeing up a differential equation. Did you know that the earth has resonence frequences... and do you have any idea how hard it is to describe a sphearical object buldging in an infinate amount of ways? The equations take up pages and the programs that are used are immence. I know, this is my intern job at Harvard Univ. I work with heuge amounts of data showing what the earth does. People say that god exists because everything is sooo preety... then explain to me a non hmogenious 3rd dregree nonlinear partial differential equation... I have a whole slew of 2 degree ones... and even then there are about 3 that have been solved analitically... the rest have been proven unsolvable. Hell a 3 body problem has NO anlyitcal solution... thats been proven by this silly thing called math. Math has been around since before ... hell people. It has been around for millions of years... sure it started off in simple things like how many rocks do I have, but still... it has worked itself into something that we have never seen before and Physicists are scrambling to come up with new and exciting suggestions. DO YOU KNOW HOW I WAS ANSWERED FOR THIS!!!! God must have done it becasue gods all knowing. HUH? I laid out some of the most complicated math in the world... that has taken brilliant minds decaids to solve.. and you say to me god did it all... SURE! Why the hell not... and while you start your car thank god cuz it did that too... as well as invent tooth paste and soap, dishwashers, indoor plumbing, paint, art, all TV's... all of those brand names are really just god... that Gerogeo Armini Suit... sure god did that too... and every car from an Astin Martin to a yugo. Lets even go for writen words as well as almost all physical featurs. Hell I CAME FROM GOD! Can you see why I am very anoyed at people trying to argue with me? Every single time I have a good point to make they fall back on 3 things 1)God is always right. 2)God is always right because it's written in the bible 3)God wrote the bible and thus is always right.... STOP IT! Thats not a debate about reasons or philophsy and any other people or thing trying to do the same thing would get pounced upon. I am not going to debate word semantics with you... this post has come this far and I am scientist not a lit major. I do however have a rather good understanding of the basics of physics... nothing too great but a good start... and very quickly you see none of it is preety... the delta of f =ma in spearical poloar corridents is about 3 lines of solid partials... and very ugly ones at that. The watchmaker thing was never refuted and I am concered that people who are flinging names can not even back up their own reasons or thoughts. I have my math... it's not a religion, it's fact. It's proven when you wake up and want a cup of coffie.. when you get into a car... or ride the bus. Does this proove that god does not exist... HELL NO! I think that there are deffinitly forces that we can not see taste or touch. There are forces we don't have sences for. There are particles called pi messons, they have a half life of about 6 micro seconds, they travil at .995c. Then they decay, just about the distance from the atmostphear to the earth surface. A single messon can travil for far longer distances going the same speed... but the probibilty gets very very low. But they do it... just like radiation, just like how the universe possibly formed. In physics there are things that are so rare that it's improbible that they happen... lasers... forbidden states of electrons... but they happen. This is what math and science has thought me that the unexpected does happen... and anything can happen for any number of reasons. The probibility that there are what like 9 planets... possibly 10 planets in our soler system... why 10? Why not 15... or 2.5? Why only one sun... why not a burnt out sun... and have 3 of them! Pagans, monothiesists, athiests, any other person can not possibly answer these questions... Your beiliefs are held in an achient book filled with fairy tails and day dreems... with truth and known facts strewn between. Panganism is at least worshiping something that exists... agnostics are searching and maby forever will be searching which is wonderful since questions are such a great thing to ask. Athisets ... don't see god in every day life. They do seem to grasp the idea of a higher being at least most of them do but not a mainsteam god(s)(ess)(essses) perhaps because one has not been presented to them that they like. BUT YOU JUST SPENT A WHOLE PAGE SAYING THAT ATHIESM WAS DISBIELIEF IN GOD! Who cares... who knows... did you write the dictionaries? If I goto the bible doesn't it say that they are sinners... what kinda deffinition is that? It's like trying to define polotical parties... you can only give gross generaities... don't try to define something you can never ever undestand. To all you chirstian and offshoots... you are fixated around a book... it's a book, thats all it is... and it blinds you so that you can not see rantional argumens without getting pissed off. god or God or GOD or G_D or g_d... what difference does it make you know what we are talking about, which is kinda amusing since I have no idea. And another thing.... I have never seen or herd any ahtiest try to push his or her bielief in this fourm... I have never herd an athiest make a statement based purely on faith. I have NEVER made a statement without at least an incling of proof to back it up. Do not even try to put a label on me for you will never succeade, and I will not put a lable on you that you have no already placed on yourself. None of you are stupid, a lot are arrogant but thats expected in a fourm, and you have the rights to your own opinions... but please try to look at this from an open mind since that was what the posters idea was... I have been trying but I just got fed up with all the bull shit about A meaning not or whatever or non being no... it's a fucked up launguage with people who I don't even know defining words I have never even heard of. No excuse I am sure... but people try and fail to give good deffinitions all the time. and btw if you don't like my spelling since I know that my post is going to get flamed for it.. shut up and pm me... cuz thats just a week debating style. Last edited by asterix404; Jun 14, 2005 at 11:49 pm.

Jun 18, 2005, 10:03 am	#99 (permalink) (top)
Agent007 BANNED Posts: 302	Rez, most of the science you are writing about consists of unproven theories such as that of evolution; your belief in them is just like one's belief in a religion. Thus, when you insult SNPete and others like him, you are indeed insulting yourself, even though you think that you are the rational one and we are the magical and societally inappropriate ones. Besides, it is not as if everything in your suggested biology book is in conflict with religious thoughts; by the way, "eating," "sleeping," and "pooping" are all biological functions, and, according to your credentials and assumedly high intelligence should be explained by you and will not bring us closer to God as we "do our cult thing." By the way Rez, what is the point of your last post? Now who is the hypocrite? Last edited by Agent007; Jun 18, 2005 at 10:18 am. Reason: Rez is Really Wrong

Jun 14, 2005, 11:46 pm	#84 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	asterisk404, what ever you do, do not let them know about the evil atheist society bent on the destruction of the world organization. Oh and never let them see our secret handshake. Starboy

Jun 14, 2005, 11:55 pm	#85 (permalink) (top)
asterix404 Igneous Magma Posts: 257	you mean this one? ::shakes hand::

Jun 16, 2005, 11:11 pm	#87 (permalink) (top)
randall patrick Molten Ash Posts: 68	PETE: Please give me more than the statement that believing in God is foolish and illogical. Make the argument from you side instead of simply saying my side is wrong. Take the proactive, not the reactive approach. Give me something new! Here is your chance to shine! RP: You and I both know that no one in this forum will be able to demonstrate unequivocally whether or not there is a God. But in a philosophy forum [as opposed to, say, Sunday School] if someone proposes that something is true it is their responsibilty to demonstrate this is so. So, if there is a God and your God just happens to be the God....demonstrate it. Also, if your God does exist then how do you explain the recent tsunami in South Asian, the fact that 80% of all pregnancies end spontaeously in abortion, that a new born baby can come into the world afflicted with any one of over 3,000 genetic defects, that 680,000,000 children aged 5 years and younger died in agfony from starvation in just the 20th century etc etc etc. If that is an example of an intelligent design can you imagine how screwed up the world would be if God was autistic? In other words, even if you could demonstrate his existence we are not exactly talking about a God who gives a crap about us, right? Finally, if God exists and he is omnscient then everything any mere mortal thinks or says or does can only be an inherent manifestatiin of this. Therefore human autonomy and free will cannot exist and therefore we cannot be held morally responsible for anything we say or do. God exists? Maybe. But who in his right mind would worship and adore him in this world? Flocks of sheep, of course. rp

Jun 17, 2005, 01:19 am	#92 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	I think you need to learn more about science. Science chose other explanation than god because it has a criterion for preferring explanations. It has experiment on nature. If there are two competing explanations one can try to figure out what they say should happen, you can find where they differ and you can go look at nature to see which does the better job. If you apply this to your explanations over an over and over you get explanations that do increasingly better jobs at making predictions about reality. Fact is, explanations based on supernatural constructs like god suck when compared to many other explanations. The issue really boils down to this. God advocates have put forth an explanation of reality based on supernatural constructs. If they claim that these constructs are real then they are open to investigation. If what they can predict is no better than no explanation at all then one must ask oneself, "Why are you holding to god as an explanation for anything?" There is a basic conflict between religion and science since religion claims to explain reality and science tries to explain reality and the explanations are not matching. They are not matching at all. Something is very rotten. However everyone knows that science does a dang fine job at what it can explain, you are typing on just one of millions of examples. If god sucks at explaining reality then what are god advocates using it for? You and I both know that answer. Starboy

Jun 17, 2005, 09:20 pm	#93 (permalink) (top)
asterix404 Igneous Magma Posts: 257	HOLY SHIT! It happend again... complexity... alright... so instead of takeing the light example which is one of the most complicated things in all of physics to describe it being a self propagating wave at such high speads that it's increadable, the mathematics behind it ... well here 1 / sqrt(epp0 * mu 0)... now lets deal with mathmatical applications... involing open line integrals ... intence partial diffs... and thats only in the nice plane. Now you did what I really hate... and I don't know why you get your jollies this way... you took my entire argument and broke it down into one thing that you don't undertsnad... that I dont understand and that very few phycists truly do understand... but people do. I don't care if god exists or not... I don't care if it's a voilent god... if there is a god... if there is it doesn't care about us. I am a mear mortal, I have a shelf life... I am going to spend it trying to understand the world not make up BS about everything I dont understand and calling it gods willing. You ignore all poitns that I make and call me stupid for having them no less becasue you think it's wierd that I don't worship your god. Nothing will work with this debate. I have told you how I feal and why I do and the best you can come up with is "oh it's too hard god must have done it", except that that argument keeps on dieing with such wonderful people as Neuton and Galalaeo and Enstien... Plank, Gauss, Avagadro, Hawking... this is science... this is not dissproving or proving god... you can twist all data you feal like to show whatever you want... but it's the math that is flawed. My whole point is this: I can not see feal touch taste or acnolage any form of god. I see feal touch taste and acknolage math and physics and chemestry biology...and the like. I ask you for proof and you give me it's too complex for random events. Light does random events and eventuilly bcomes ordered and predictable... it does this in some of the most complex systems in the universe. Debate me?