To the Atheist: The Universe. By Chance or Design?

[Zeebadee]

You're wasting your time trying to discuss this with athiests. They insist that there isn't a God, never was one, the Universe isn't a product of Intelligent Design, that anyone that believes such is a liar and totally dishonest, then, when you say something like this might be true, they demand scientific proof to substantiate your belief.

[Thunder Wave]

That's science. But in science you must accept possibilities or you bias your research.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Zeebadee They insist that there isn't a God

All of those things could very well be true. There is just no reasonable evidence of such. There is good evidence that people delude themselves. Someone might insist there is no Thor, yet the same person believes in Jehovah, the tribal war god. Many people believed in those gods with no more evidence than that person that believes in Jehovah.

Since we know that people delude themselves with god(s), we would require better evidence. I can't say that there are no gods floating out somewhere in the universe, just as I can't say there are no pink dolphins that breathe cat urine and smoke shoe polish cigars. I just have no reason to posit such a thing, and I have no good reason to assume that any gods exist.

[Starboy]

That is really it Gorgo. All the supernaturalists can respond to the atheist with is a strawman. A strawman that in any other circumstance they would not buy. It is all very dishonest and they are completely oblivious to it. The best they can do is not even try to justify their belief at all. To admit that it could very well be a crazy belief. That the only reason they hold those beliefs is because it makes them feel good. They have no more justification for their behavior than a junkie. Especially in the light of their current political behavior.

Starboy

[Zeebadee]

What strawman are you talking about? And what's "very dishonest" about thinking that the Universe was created? Of course I could be mistaken, but so what, what's that to you? Where do you believe the universe came from?

"They have no more justification for their behavior than a junkie. Especially in the light of their current political behavior."

What is this supposed to mean? What behavior do I need to justify, and why would I ever need to justify it to you? What exactly do you know about my "current political behavior" anyway?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Zeebadee What strawman are you talking about?

Just look in any of the threads were supernaturalists post with atheists. They are full of strawmen. Take your last post.

They insist that there isn't a God, never was one,

All I insist is that there no more evidence for the god that you claim exists than for the god that you say does not exist. But for some reason theists don't get this. They just about never seem to get this.

the Universe isn't a product of Intelligent Design,

All I insist is that IDiots that think what they advocate is science will continue to be IDiots. That if the only way they can get their ideas taught is by way of school boards instead of actually doing science then they are IDiots. That they lack the honesty to admit that ID is not science but religion dressed up like science.

that anyone that believes such is a liar and totally dishonest,

All I have insisted is that the person that insists their beliefs are the "truth" but do not subject their ideas to the same standards that they would subject any similar idea, that person is dishonest and a hypocrite to boot!

then, when you say something like this might be true, they demand scientific proof to substantiate your belief.

Good example of the hypocrisy and dishonesty of supernaturalists, because if someone came to them and claimed that Crum rules the world they would require the very same things that an atheist would ask for.

But for some reason theists do not get it. All they can do is provide these strawman claims that in any other context they would recognize as obvious strawmen.

And what's "very dishonest" about thinking that the Universe was created? Of course I could be mistaken, but so what, what's that to you? Where do you believe the universe came from?

Again a strawman. I have always said is that it is not what supernaturalists believe that makes them dishonest, it is how they came by and justified those beliefs and the claims they make about those beliefs that makes them dishonest.

"They have no more justification for their behavior than a junkie. Especially in the light of their current political behavior." What is this supposed to mean? What behavior do I need to justify, and why would I ever need to justify it to you? What exactly do you know about my "current political behavior" anyway?

In my experience when you dig into a supernaturalist’s beliefs long enough you come to their base reason for holding those beliefs. You find that they have no rational reason for holding them at all. That their primary reason for holding those beliefs is emotional and it is always in the form of emotional support. They believe because it makes them feel good in some way. It gives them some sort of comfort. It helps them cope with an existence that they are incapable of comprehending in the smallest way or they unable to accept an existence that could at best be indifferent to them. Their belief is a psychological reaction to reality. They are engaged in coping behavior. Not all that different from most junkies.

Starboy

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Starboy I have always said is that it is not what supernaturalists believe that makes them dishonest, it is how they came by and justified those beliefs and the claims they make about those beliefs that makes them dishonest. Starboy

Since you have no idea what I believe, how I came by them, or how I justify them to myself, your stereotyping is much more dishonest than anything I believe.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Zeebadee Since you have no idea what I believe, how I came by them, or how I justify them to myself, your stereotyping is much more dishonest than anything I believe.

If this had been your first post you would have a point.

Starboy

[asterix404]

Aye but not with me. I am not trying to prove or disproove god since that is impossable. I say that if you take a broken up watch in a bag, given that it can fall apart will eventuilly get back in working order if given enough time. Just like life... a pool of acids made from carbon and nitrogen and the like that randomly form... a lighting bolt strikes this ooze and bam you have a cell... that took about one and a half a billion years... odds are very good that it would have happend... just like if you managed to shake that bag for one and a half a billion years most of the pices would at some point be in the correct place.

I don't know if randomazation theroy and chatoic physics and statisticle physics actuilly validate or invaladate god... I don't care. Say that god created all the science... that seems to be a good thing to fall back on when nothing can be said. And don't give me this fucking respect shit... I respect your opinon and all that... no you don't... you just waved your hand at 2 years of my studies and said god did it. How about this... we were all alians and came from mars before a heuge rocket ship made ou of mice intestins blew it up... Can you disproove that this happens or has ever happend... or will you just say that god did not will it to happen so it didn't. I hate that excuse that god created everything there for this must be ID. How can I even debate that... no god didn't do that... or yes of course god did... there isn't any evidance to say either way... but there is evedence that an atomic nucleus flies out of an atom. For a very long time people believed that god made that happen. For a very long time god caused electricity, and victories in war, and people getting better when they had a form of mold, or when people drank beer they didn't get sick, unlike if they drank the water. That was all once god. It does not suprise me that people look at gross amouts of evedence of things occuring without explination and say it was god. We have just not found the evedence of how the earth was formed yet... but we are looking. We don't know how the universe was created, but we are looking.

Have you ever spoken with someone who you thought was so profoundly smart that you assumed that he was becsue he was talking about htings you don't undertsand. Lets say in computer science dealing with c pointers and how they can directly affect vital system proceses and acces areas on a PCI card by interfacing with the MB through memory location. This will not mean much to about 90% of you... you don't know how your OS works... you don't know why your printer works... or how power comes in to your house or even from where it comes from.... does god do all that? It's silly to think so... This is all I am saying, and I show no respect to people, and you all know this by now, who ignore everything logical and say it's gods doing. If we left it at that.... there would be nothing at all... we would be living in the caves convinced that gods made everything... That is why I am an agnostic, or rather even better thing that there are life energies... and that these have come from the earth... they did not create the earth.

[Starboy]

Have you ever spoken with someone who you thought was so profoundly smart that you assumed that he was becsue he was talking about htings you don't undertsand. Lets say in computer science dealing with c pointers and how they can directly affect vital system proceses and acces areas on a PCI card by interfacing with the MB through memory location. This will not mean much to about 90% of you... you don't know how your OS works... you don't know why your printer works... or how power comes in to your house or even from where it comes from.... does god do all that? It's silly to think so... This is all I am saying, and I show no respect to people, and you all know this by now, who ignore everything logical and say it's gods doing. If we left it at that.... there would be nothing at all... we would be living in the caves convinced that gods made everything... That is why I am an agnostic, or rather even better thing that there are life energies... and that these have come from the earth... they did not create the earth.

I understand what you are talking about when it comes to the internals of computer systems and I understand what you are talking about when it comes to the internals of magical thinkers. People who have to beg for respect for their ideas must resort to such tactics because their ideas are so outrageous that they could not get respect any other way. In fact for the vast majority of theists if they were asked to believe what they ask others to believe but presented in a more prosaic way they would refuse to believe it. And yet they ask for the respect that they are incapable of themselves.

Starboy

[asterix404]

Funny thing is that this is a very common thing through the whole of time. People were killed cuz god said that the sun moved around the earth....

[Thunder Wave]

God said that? I must have missed that chapter.

[Starboy]

Quote by: asterix404 Funny thing is that this is a very common thing through the whole of time. People were killed cuz god said that the sun moved around the earth....

Persecuted perhaps but who was killed that anyone knows of?

Starboy

[Thunder Wave]

Okay, where does it say "God said that the sun moved around the Earth"?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Thunder Wave Okay, where does it say "God said that the sun moved around the Earth"?

It's in there somewhere. I've seen it before. But the interesting part is that is says a great deal more than that. It mirrors very nicely the Bronze Age version of the world as being flat with a starry dome overhead and with the firmament beyond.

Quote by: Genesis: Chapter 1: verse 6 "Let there be a Firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters."

Biblical Cosmology

Starboy

[Thunder Wave]

Thank you Starboy. I now remember most of that. Maybe its time for a new translation to fit the modern world. I'm sure a wo/man of God could do it "Right".

How do people actually believe this, I tend to think. I just remembered one thing everyone said beside just to have faith. They said it was mainly speaking in metaphors and was to be taken that way only.

Ahh but the Bible of science has had itself many changes and will forever change until humanity ceases to exist.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Thunder Wave Thank you Starboy. I now remember most of that. Maybe its time for a new translation to fit the modern world. I'm sure a wo/man of God could do it "Right".

*wink* *wink* *nod* *nod* …. Sure a new "translation".

How do people actually believe this, I tend to think. I just remembered one thing everyone said beside just to have faith. They said it was mainly speaking in metaphors and was to be taken that way only.

Many people ask this question but for some reason no one seriously tries to find an answer. It is the case that biblical literalism is spreading like wildfire through the US population. Those folks will hiss at you if you even suggest interpreting the bible metaphorically. I think it is a very interesting question. Why are there so many people that are so set on taking the bible literally? What in the world do these people hope to gain from it? What is the real agenda of these religious leaders?

Ahh but the Bible of science has had itself many changes and will forever change until humanity ceases to exist.

What bible of science? There ain't no such thing. What would be the point of being a scientist if there was one?

Starboy

[Thunder Wave]

Quote by: Starboy What bible of science? There ain't no such thing. What would be the point of being a scientist if there was one?

That was only a metaphor. A joke, a comparison with a sense of humor.

Theories change and some become proven but science does keep records and compared to a bible that supposedly kept records of life and stories they can be somewhat related. Very different but hey, I was trying to be poetic.

Oh well. Poetry was never my thing.

[asterix404]

Who was killed for saying the earth revolved around the sun? Galalao... capericus... neuton was shuned... kepler was shuned... The fact that the bible did or did not say that is immeterial... just like Jesus being alive, it doesn't matter. What matters is the jesus in the bible just like when the pope and all priests say that the sun moves around the earth. What matters is how christians thought about it.

[Starboy]

Quote by: asterix404 Who was killed for saying the earth revolved around the sun? Galalao... capericus... neuton was shuned... kepler was shuned... The fact that the bible did or did not say that is immeterial... just like Jesus being alive, it doesn't matter. What matters is the jesus in the bible just like when the pope and all priests say that the sun moves around the earth. What matters is how christians thought about it.

I agree that what was at stake was the ability of the Pope to continue to be the abiter of reality. I understand that. I was just asking about your reference to the killings is all. I know that many witches, wicca, atheists, pagans and such were indeed killed I was just unawares that any scientiests were killed as well. Just thought that you knew something that I was unawares of. Just asking is all.

Starboy