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Starboy · Jun 13, 2005, 05:00 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

I have no proof either way.

So do you lack a belief in Zeus or do you have a belief in Zeus? Which is it?

Starboy

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 13, 2005, 05:02 pm

I have neither. There is no proof to support either side.

Starboy · Jun 13, 2005, 05:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

I have neither. There is no proof to support either side.

So you neither lack a belief nor have a belief? You realize that such a position is logically absurd.

You do understand that when there is no proof and as a result one holds no belief that the person then lacks a belief? You do understand what it means to lack a belief? It is a state where you have no belief regarding the subject of the belief. So if you have no belief then you lack a belief. Because if English grammer is too much for you then I am not sure that any form of debate by way of using the English language would be of any use with you.

Starboy

Starboy · Jun 13, 2005, 05:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

I have neither. There is no proof to support either side.

Gee tman_ndsu08, why do you reject Zeus?

Sorry just had to do it. I get that stupid line from theists all the time. It is just so nice to give it back to them.

Starboy

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 13, 2005, 08:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

So you neither lack a belief nor have a belief? You realize that such a position is logically absurd

Those are 2 separate beliefs. I choose to believe neither of them. Instead, I subscribe to a 3rd belief: that the 1st 2 have no proof and are thus illogical.

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 13, 2005, 08:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

Gee tman_ndsu08, why do you reject Zeus?

Sorry just had to do it. I get that stupid line from theists all the time. It is just so nice to give it back to them.

Starboy

I'm not a theist.

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 13, 2005, 08:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

Those are 2 separate beliefs. I choose to believe neither of them. Instead, I subscribe to a 3rd belief: that the 1st 2 have no proof and are thus illogical.

That's brilliant. You consider a "lack of belief" a belief?

So much for meaningful discourse.

Starboy · Jun 13, 2005, 09:21 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

Those are 2 separate beliefs. I choose to believe neither of them. Instead, I subscribe to a 3rd belief: that the 1st 2 have no proof and are thus illogical.

A baby lacks a belief in god. What proof is required for that? A rock lacks a belief in god. What proof is required for that?

Tell me why are you so set on this absurd form or reasoning? What are you trying to hide from yourself?

Starboy

Starboy · Jun 13, 2005, 11:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

I'm not a theist.

No problem. It felt good anyway. Anyway, what are you?

Starboy

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 14, 2005, 10:36 am

My belief is agnostic. That's not a lack of belief, it's the belief that both the beliefs of "god exists" and "god doesn't exist" have no proof and are thus irrelevent.

Samildanach · Jun 14, 2005, 10:45 am

Good tman, in that case I dont want to see your name in any debate about the existence or non existence of God threads. :)

Khushi · Jun 14, 2005, 10:48 am

Agnosticism is just doubting whether or not God exists. It goes on neither side...its kinda in the middle.

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 14, 2005, 10:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: Samildanach

Good tman, in that case I dont want to see your name in any debate about the existence or non existence of God threads. :)

I don't believe it is and it won't be in the future.

Starboy · Jun 14, 2005, 11:37 am

I wish people would take the time to learn the source of words, where they came from and what their root meanings are. I only makes sense if they are going to communicate using language. Otherwise what is the point?

Quote:

Quote by: Webster's

Main Entry: gno•sis
Pronunciation: 'nO-s&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek gnOsis, literally, knowledge, from gignOskein
: esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation

The gnostics were an early Christian sect that claimed to "know" god in every sense of the word "know". It was not a belief, they knew.

Thomas Huxley (AKA Darwin's Bulldog) coined the term agnostic to describe himself as one who did not know. Not one who did not believe. But he did this as a defense for being an a-theist (one without belief in gods) since if you couldn't know then it was irrational to have a belief. And since most agnostics claim that one can never know (at least not while we are alive) then the logical position was to be an a-theist. It is not as if there are not gnostic theists, or agnostic theists, or agnostic atheists or gnostic atheists. Gnosis and belief are two different things. One is about knowing and the other is about believing.

Starboy

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 14, 2005, 08:46 pm

Like I said, there is no such thing as a person who has no beliefs.

The only type of people who are living and have no beliefs are vegitables.

You choose to belief that god doesn't exist. That's a belief. Others choose to belief that god does exist. That's a belief. I choose to belief that there is no proof for either of the former two beliefs and thus they are irrelevent. That, again, is a belief.

Starboy · Jun 14, 2005, 09:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

Like I said, there is no such thing as a person who has no beliefs.

And like a said a-theist only pertains to beliefs in god. It doesn't mean that the person does not hold any other beliefs or knowledge for that matter.

Quote:

The only type of people who are living and have no beliefs are vegitables.

This would be a snappy retort if it had anything at all to do with what an a-thiest is.

Quote:

You choose to belief that god doesn't exist. That's a belief. Others choose to belief that god does exist. That's a belief. I choose to belief that there is no proof for either of the former two beliefs and thus they are irrelevent. That, again, is a belief.

Actually I do not know that god exists just as I do not know it doesn't exist. If one does not know then it is not rational to believe. Not believing there is a god is not the same a believing there is not a god. Perhaps that is where you have your confusion.

Starboy

Gorgo · Jun 14, 2005, 09:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

Like I said, there is no such thing as a person who has no beliefs.

That's very true, but I do my best not to believe, but rather to think.

Morgan_Freeman · Jun 14, 2005, 10:34 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

Like I said, there is no such thing as a person who has no beliefs.

Let me introduce you to myself, tman. I have no beliefs.

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

You choose to belief that god doesn't exist. That's a belief. Others choose to belief that god does exist. That's a belief. I choose to belief that there is no proof for either of the former two beliefs and thus they are irrelevent. That, again, is a belief.

You've neglected a fourth position: someone with no beliefs at all.

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 15, 2005, 12:17 pm

Choosing to have no beliefs at all is a belief.

tman_ndsu08 · Jun 15, 2005, 12:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

Not believing there is a god is not the same a believing there is not a god.

Starboy

Those are 2 separate beliefs.

Your belief is either that you're not going to have a belief that there is a god or your belief is that there is not a god.

Jun 14, 2005, 10:45 am	#151 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Good tman, in that case I dont want to see your name in any debate about the existence or non existence of God threads. :) I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Jun 13, 2005, 05:02 pm	#142 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	I have neither. There is no proof to support either side.

Jun 14, 2005, 10:36 am	#150 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	My belief is agnostic. That's not a lack of belief, it's the belief that both the beliefs of "god exists" and "god doesn't exist" have no proof and are thus irrelevent.

Jun 14, 2005, 10:48 am	#152 (permalink) (top)
Khushi BANNED Location: Tampa Posts: 33	Agnosticism is just doubting whether or not God exists. It goes on neither side...its kinda in the middle.

Jun 14, 2005, 08:46 pm	#155 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Like I said, there is no such thing as a person who has no beliefs. The only type of people who are living and have no beliefs are vegitables. You choose to belief that god doesn't exist. That's a belief. Others choose to belief that god does exist. That's a belief. I choose to belief that there is no proof for either of the former two beliefs and thus they are irrelevent. That, again, is a belief.

Jun 15, 2005, 12:17 pm	#159 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Choosing to have no beliefs at all is a belief.