Agnostics...Immobile?

[belverron]

Quote by: moustache If no one put us here on earth, if there is no creator, then why are we here? if there was no god, then wouldnt we be here for no purpose?

This kind of thought, like many others, doesn't bug you as much after you've lived with it for long enough. I struggled with it for a while several years ago, but it didn't bring me any closer to faith. I can find a way to satisfy my deepest needs without religion. I was raised in such a way and have come to think in such a way that religion has never really been an option.

[cheesenuggett]

Quote by: moustache Yes this is also what I have found. If there is no god, then wouldnt life be meaningless? Agnostics choose doubt as a philosiphy of life: they doubt god, therefore they doubt any meaning of life.

no, we just havent picked what religeon to be certain with, in other words having an open mind on the whole subject

im starting to lean towards a less strict and traditional islam as my religeon, bu for right now it isnt a big thing for me, in fact quite useless.

if the meaning of life is to prepare for afterlife than life is meaningless, so you contradicted yourself there buddy

[Thunder Wave]

I haven't thought of agnostics that much but I guess that could define me since I have no exact religion as of yet. I'm completely open to new ideas and I love to explore possibilities of life and death/afterlife.

Could it be possible that life's only meaning is what you create or choose to describe its meaning?

That means than it is pure personal and no one else could take that away from you unless you allow it. So what's wrong with Agnostic? Does it effect other people's personal beliefs?

[cheesenuggett]

Quote by: Thunder Wave I haven't thought of agnostics that much but I guess that could define me since I have no exact religion as of yet. I'm completely open to new ideas and I love to explore possibilities of life and death/afterlife. Could it be possible that life's only meaning is what you create or choose to describe its meaning? That means than it is pure personal and no one else could take that away from you unless you allow it. So what's wrong with Agnostic? Does it effect other people's personal beliefs?

any view thats not theirs is a personal attack

just a joke

[moustache]

Quote by: Starboy So the point of the afterlife is to prepare for the afterlife? Doesn't sound like you have thought this whole purpose thing out at all.

No, the point of our time here on EARTH is to prepare us for heaven (afterlife). On earth we learn, make mistakes, repent, and we are rewarded in heaven.

[moustache]

Quote by: cheesenuggett no, we just havent picked what religeon to be certain with, in other words having an open mind on the whole subject

"To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation."

Quote by: cheesenuggett if the meaning of life is to prepare for afterlife than life is meaningless, so you contradicted yourself there buddy

no contradiction...Our time on earth is preparing us for the afterlife...We learn, make mistakes and repent while on earth... Like I just explained to starboy....

[belverron]

"To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation."

Indecision can imply doubt but does not necessitate it. I, for one, am not one to dwell on this kind of question. I have a fatalistic view of religion. What will be after after my death, will be. There are reasons other than doubt which underly indecision. Apathy, for instance.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: moustache Our time on earth is preparing us for the afterlife

You think you have no worth, so you create an afterlife fantasy to give yourself worth, yet there is no intrinsic value in an afterlife. Drop the need for gaining self worth. Self worth is irrelevant unless you think you don't have it.

[moustache]

Quote by: Gorgo You think you have no worth, so you create an afterlife fantasy to give yourself worth, yet there is no intrinsic value in an afterlife. Drop the need for gaining self worth. Self worth is irrelevant unless you think you don't have it.

I have always had self worth. Religion or not.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: moustache I have always had self worth. Religion or not.

You just told me that you didn't. You just told me that your life would be worth nothing if it weren't for gods and afterlives. Right? Isn't that what gives it meaning (worth)?

Quote by: moustache On earth we learn, make mistakes, repent, and we are rewarded in heaven.

[Starboy]

Quote by: moustache No, the point of our time here on EARTH is to prepare us for heaven (afterlife). On earth we learn, make mistakes, repent, and we are rewarded in heaven.

You didn't answer my question. What is the point if there is an afterlife?

Starboy

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Starboy What claims does an atheist have. It is nothing but a lack of belief. You must be talking about the anti-theists. Starboy

An atheist believes that god doesn't exist.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist

[tman_ndsu08]

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a person who has no beliefs.

The closest thing that you can get is apathy, in which case you choose to not care.

But there is no such thing as simply a null set of beliefs.

[Starboy]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 An atheist believes that god doesn't exist. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist

Funny thing about definitions. They represent the common uses of words. They are made by the majority of the people. Now of course if it pertains to a belief held by the majority then there is a good chance that it is an honest definition. However atheists are a small percentage of the population so they do not get to place their definitions of atheism into many of the dictionaries. So it should not be surprising if those dishonest theists are at it again by defining an atheist in a way that supports their argument. It would be great if the atheist definition of Christian was placed in the dictionary. I am sure Christians would not like it at all.

But just so you know the word atheist is an old word that traces back to the Greek. It derives from a-theos. It means without god, not against god. Just as apolitical means without politics not against politics, asexual means without sexuality not against sexuality, asymmetrical means without symmetry not against symmetry.

And of course an atheist is not a person without all belief. It is a person without beliefs in god(s). Funny thing about that, just about everyone on the earth is an atheist not of course when it comes to the gods they do believe in but when it comes to the gods they are without a belief in.

It also so funny how theists just keep on presenting this stawman argument over and over and over. It is like they are bunch of ignorant idiots.

Starboy

[tman_ndsu08]

"It is a person without beliefs in god(s)" itself is a belief. It's an action. You're choosing not to have a belief in god.

It's also completely irrelevent weather you choose not to have a belief of god or believe in god fully. Neither side can have any proof of their position in principle.


It's just as irrelevent as the debate between those who choose not to believe that there are invisible flying dragons who live on earth and those who do.

[Starboy]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 "It is a person without beliefs in god(s)" itself is a belief. It's an action. You're choosing not to have a belief in god.

Sure, and bald is a hair color.

It's also completely irrelevent weather you choose not to have a belief of god or believe in god fully. Neither side can have any proof of their position in principle.

I would never tell someone that there must be no god. All I would point out is that there is as much evidence for the gods you would choose to believe in as there is for the gods that you do not choose to believe in. And therefore there is nothing rational or reasonable about such a belief unless you choose to believe in all possible gods.

It's just as irrelevent as the debate between those who choose not to believe that there are invisible flying dragons who live on earth and those who do.

Yup, unless of course those that believe in invisible flying dragons are trying to get the government to fund landing pads for those dragons. It is perfectly fine for them to fund it themselves, but I don't want them picking my pocket to do it.

Starboy

[moustache]

Quote by: Gorgo You just told me that you didn't. You just told me that your life would be worth nothing if it weren't for gods and afterlives. Right? Isn't that what gives it meaning (worth)?

No, I have had self-worth religion or not. But if there was no god, then we would have no PURPOSE.

Quote by: Starboy You didn't answer my question. What is the point if there is an afterlife?

I already answered it... post #45:

No, the point of our time here on EARTH is to prepare us for heaven (afterlife). On earth we learn, make mistakes, repent, and we are rewarded in heaven.

[Starboy]

Quote by: moustache I already answered it... post #45: No, the point of our time here on EARTH is to prepare us for heaven (afterlife). On earth we learn, make mistakes, repent, and we are rewarded in heaven.

Read carefully. Make an effort. This will be the third time.

What is the point if there is an afterlife?

Starboy

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Starboy Sure, and bald is a hair color.

If you believe that bald is a hair color, that's a belief. If you think that bald isn't a hair color, that's also a belief.

I would never tell someone that there must be no god. All I would point out is that there is as much evidence for the gods you would choose to believe in as there is for the gods that you do not choose to believe in.

This is what an agnostic believes. That the lack of proof for either side represents the fallacy for subscribing to either position. Our belief is that we have no idea what is out there and that nothing can ever prove that there is or isn't somethign out there. Welcome.

[quote]And therefore there is nothing rational or reasonable about such a belief unless you choose to believe in all possible gods.[quote]

That's the least rational belief, although it is a belief.

[Starboy]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 If you believe that bald is a hair color, that's a belief. If you think that bald isn't a hair color, that's also a belief.

It was a joke illustrating how silly your contention was. A lack of belief is no more a belief than a lack of hair is a hair color.

This is what an agnostic believes. That the lack of proof for either side represents the fallacy for subscribing to either position. Our belief is that we have no idea what is out there and that nothing can ever prove that there is or isn't somethign out there. Welcome.

Yes I understand that. Gnosis is from the Greek. It means 'to know'. A gnostic is 'one who knows'. An a-gnostic is 'one that is without knowing'. But knowing and belief are not the same thing. One can be with belief at the same time be without knowing and one can be without belief at the same time be without knowing. As you point out if you don't know then it is irrational to believe in it. So all you are saying is that if everyone is an a-gnositic then it is reasonable for them to be an a-theist. They are a-gnostic a-theists. They are without knowing and without belief in god(s).

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Quote by: Starboy And therefore there is nothing rational or reasonable about such a belief unless you choose to believe in all possible gods. That's the least rational belief, although it is a belief.

It is not a belief. It is a logical statement based on your very contentions that we do not know. And that if a person thinks it is reasonable to believe in any god when they do not know and can not know then logically they should think it to be reasonable to believe in all gods. In fact it would be irrational to claim to believe in one god or set of gods and not believe in all other gods. This statement is not a belief this is just simple logic. And because it is simple logic, those that do not know but contend that one should believe in their god but not in any of the other gods are not being logical. And if they do not take the time to examine the basis of their own position against the position they are rejecting then they are practicing a double standard. And such a practice is dishonest. It is a form of self foolery.

Starboy