True evil, sin, and the nature of reality

[MerlinsByte]

the disclaimer is intended for the usual suspects...


!!!!! DISCLAIMER!!!! …. Free Thought zone…independent thought and abstract thinking may be required!!!!! DISCLAIMER…. May contain religious content…not suitable for closed-minded audiences!!!!…CAUTION…. MAY CONTAIN LANUAGE SUCH AS GOD, JESUS AND LOVE…USE MATURE JUDGMENT BEFORE PROCEEDING…. CAUTION…
The following Thread is based entirely on my opinion and may not apply to your world.

This Thread has been rated R for religious content and truth…

What is evil? What is sin? Does evil and sin affect our entire universe? It is my finding that sin affects every aspect of our universe and reality. I delineate sin as any destructive emotion, thought or action. When, in the Noah story, God destroyed the world, be it an actual event, or written in parable, the implication and moral of the story remains true. I feel that this story was given credence and length because it illustrated that if god had not destroyed the earth (in reality or in parable) the entire earth would become evil and sinful. If the earth had no righteous (note one) sentient beings, then god’s creation and our universe would cease to exist or be destroyed by the sin or destructive force of sin. This is the reason we have so many lessons in the bible that teaches the fetid nature of sin. It is the only thing that can destroy our universe. Of course Jesus and love is the reverse of sin and will be what ultimately saves the earth and our universe from Satan/sin/evil.

True evil it seems does not exist in our temporal universe. By true evil I imply spiritual evil that has a destructive agenda to destroy gods creation, some may entitle this spirit evil the devil Satan etc. While it evil exists as ethereal force and is dangerous it may not manifest completely in our universe, but this will change in the future. Mental illness, sub par brain functioning and greed is the cause for all other evil.

Note one……..righteous …. Without sin or striving to be without sin.

[Starboy]

Quote by: MerlinsByte What is evil? What is sin? Does evil and sin affect our entire universe? It is my finding that sin affects every aspect of our universe and reality.

So are you saying that the Andromeda galaxy has sinned?

I delineate sin as any destructive emotion, thought or action. When, in the Noah story, God destroyed the world, be it an actual event, or written in parable, the implication and moral of the story remains true. I feel that this story was given credence and length because it illustrated that if god had not destroyed the earth (in reality or in parable) the entire earth would become evil and sinful. If the earth had no righteous (note one) sentient beings, then god’s creation and our universe would cease to exist or be destroyed by the sin or destructive force of sin. This is the reason we have so many lessons in the bible that teaches the fetid nature of sin. It is the only thing that can destroy our universe. Of course Jesus and love is the reverse of sin and will be what ultimately saves the earth and our universe from Satan/sin/evil.

I find it interesting that sin is defined as a destructive emotion. So was god sinning when he destroyed the earth? And if not, why not?

True evil it seems does not exist in our temporal universe. By true evil I imply spiritual evil that has a destructive agenda to destroy gods creation, some may entitle this spirit evil the devil Satan etc. While it evil exists as ethereal force and is dangerous it may not manifest completely in our universe, but this will change in the future. Mental illness, sub par brain functioning and greed is the cause for all other evil.

But according to Christians and their stories the largest evil of all would have to be god. All other supernatural constructs pale in comparison to the claimed destruction that is also claimed to have been performed by god.

Note one……..righteous …. Without sin or striving to be without sin.

So god is not righteous.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

I think there is only one real meaning of sin: Doing something that you believe God told you not to do.

If you don't think there is a god, then you don't believe you can sin.

If there is no God there is no sin.

If there is God, then make sure you know what he says sin is.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus If there is God, then make sure you know what he says sin is.

As if that has ever been easy at all? It is not as if the purported thoughts of god on the matter are not grossly contradictory and completely nonsensical. And that is before comparing the reality claims made against actual reality.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Starboy As if that has ever been easy at all? It is not as if the purported thoughts of god on the matter are not grossly contradictory and completely nonsensical. And that is before comparing the reality claims made against actual reality. Starboy

Calm down Starboy. I'm not debating theism here. All I am getting at is that the notion of sin is inevitably tied to the notion of god. Sin is as valid as is the existance of God, however valid you believe that to be.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus Calm down Starboy. I'm not debating theism here. All I am getting at is that the notion of sin is inevitably tied to the notion of god. Sin is as valid as is the existance of God, however valid you believe that to be.

The idea of a cosmic dark side is also a very old idea, yin/yang. In that scheme yin and yang need each other. There cannot be darkness without light and visa versa. But no creator is needed. It is just a dressed up version of "shit happens".

Starboy

[Starboy]

http://www.regenerating-universe.org..._cosmology.htm

The early Chinese thinkers believed that the universe is an entity, which is continuously evolving within itself with unceasing probabilities. They believed that all things in nature stem from fundamental poles. Because of the difference in the energies of poles that the universe evolves into all kinds of unceasing interchanges. The original first pair of poles are called Yin and Yang (), but these simple poles would evolve into a complexity of poles. Yin and Yang represent the male and female nature, or the positive and the negative, or the top and bottom, or the back and front, day and night, or dark and light, or right and wrong, or the opposite poles of electrical charges, and so on and so forth..... In so doing, they had, in fact, believed that for every positive existence there is a negative one too ( So, some millenniums later, one Englishman Paul Dirac called it "matters and anti-matters", and for that he became a Nobel Laureate in1933 )..... These opposition energies form a complexity of symmetries and give rise to evolution and changes in all natures phenomena. This wisdom of I-Ching, which actually means the Book of Changes, is said to have been partially developed during the rein of Fu Xi () and his offspring. The epoch lasted from 5341 BC to 4082 BC.

The fact that the early Chinese did not believe in Gods and also did not leave us beliefs or legends of any kind of divine creation will remain always a mystery. Anyhow, it was only in the Three Kingdom epoch about the 3rd Century AD that a writer named Shu Zheng did tell the only story of creation that has existed in Chinese history ever since. ( ). The book title "Three Five Historic Records" is translated as "The historic records of Three Huang and Five Di ". Both Huang and Di are titles of supreme rulers, such as Emperors or Kings. The period of "Three Five" covers the span from the Neolithic Age about 7000 BC to round about 2200 BC ). I shall now relate to you the story briefly below :- Supposedly the universe was originally just a totally concealed solid matter, and an uneventful eternity had already passed. Then one day suddenly a strong, powerful and fully grown man was born inside this concealment. His name was Pang Ghu. There was no light and no free rooms. So Pang Ghu struggled to stretch out. In one mighty jerk he managed to crack open a gap and saw light from outside. In another powerful upwards push he managed to separate the solid rock in which he was born. Now he stood up and found his feet planted firmly on solid ground while his hands were holding up the upper part of his world. But there was still not much free space around, so he started to hack away (By the way, he had an axe and a chisel too). In this very first day he managed to hack open 10 feet space in his world, but then he also grew 10 feet taller, and as each day he hacked away, he grew 10 feet taller each day. He became an enormous giant as he had lived 18,000 years, during all that time he laboured this arduous task of hacking open the space between heaven and earth (but definitely not as arduous as my own hacking!) while he grew daily 10 feet taller..... Finally he became completely exhausted. As he laid dying, his giant body turned into mountains and terrains, his blood and veins became rivers. His breath had already become winds and air. His roars had become thunders. His 2 eye balls one had become the sun and the other turned into moon .... Sorry, can't tell you what he used for eating, or whether he had slept, but at least you know now how our universe got started...

Just so you know, there is more than one way to skin a supernatural cat.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

BY STARBOY...So are you saying that the Andromeda galaxy has sinned?

MERLIN SEZ...In Quantum theory a measurement requires an observer. We are the observers. Every action we do effects everything in our future and thus the universes future. This would include the fate of each atom, each electron, each muon each quark etc in M-31/NGC206.

BY STARBOY...I find it interesting that sin is defined as a destructive emotion. So was God sinning when he destroyed the earth? And if not, why not?

Merlin...God didn't destroy the earth mans actions did. This creation is special and I don't think even God considers us and our universe(s) expendable. In my opinion God has no emotions as we know them. The universe was about to be destroyed by mans hand and sin. In open theism God isn't perfect the way that we perceive perfection. So mans actions was the cause and the effect was his near genocide.

BY STARBOY...But according to Christians and their stories the largest evil of all would have to be God. All other supernatural constructs pale in comparison to the claimed destruction that is also claimed to have been performed by god.

Merlin...I think it was Einstein who said something to the effect .... I don't doubt that God created the universe to run by physical processes and natural law, I do doubt If he had a choice (to make the universe run on "natural law"). God allows this universe to run on natural law and doesn't normally intervene. However I believe this deity does intervene when we are about to commit total universal suicide The ultimate sin would be the destruction of the universe VIA all sentient observers becoming purely sinful.

MB

............GOTTA TRIP TO THE FRIDGE FOR A TEA.......HOT DAY HERE ...

[belverron]

How, exactly, does sin affect more than our species?

[Starboy]

Quote by: MerlinsByte MERLIN SEZ...In Quantum theory a measurement requires an observer. We are the observers. Every action we do effects everything in our future and thus the universes future. This would include the fate of each atom, each electron, each muon each quark etc in M-31/NGC206.

So you are saying that Andromeda has sinned because we have observed it? So since we are looking at the old Andromeda of about three million years ago is the old Andromeda is evil but the current Andromeda is not because we have not observed it yet?

I gotta say that your ideas are insane.

Merlin...God didn't destroy the earth mans actions did. This creation is special and I don't think even God considers us and our universe(s) expendable. In my opinion God has no emotions as we know them. The universe was about to be destroyed by mans hand and sin. In open theism God isn't perfect the way that we perceive perfection. So mans actions was the cause and the effect was his near genocide.

If god can't be angry then why are all those people in the old testament worried about making god angry?

Also I am always amazed when people think it is perfectly sane to blame humanity for its failures when god is the one that made us. It is psychotic.

Merlin...I think it was Einstein who said something to the effect .... I don't doubt that God created the universe to run by physical processes and natural law, I do doubt If he had a choice (to make the universe run on "natural law"). God allows this universe to run on natural law and doesn't normally intervene. However I believe this deity does intervene when we are about to commit total universal suicide The ultimate sin would be the destruction of the universe VIA all sentient observers becoming purely sinful.

You need to read more about Einstien because he also said many times and forcefully in response to magical thinkers such as yourself that he did not believe in any kind of a personal god that interferes in the affairs of man in any way whatsoever. But even so who cares? It is not as if Einstein ever claimed to be some expert on god. He just liked to boss god around.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

Merlin - Do you ever tire of applying quantun physics and conmis crap to totally irrelevant topics?

[MerlinsByte]

By Belvelrron...How, exactly, does sin affect more than our species?

Ok let me give you the framework of my beliefs, starting with I feel without sentient observers (Man is the only ones that we know of at the present) the universe would be a different thing entirely. Different in its operation and form than what we recognize today as the universe.

I feel that the universe is predestined from start to finish. But we have free will which the universe couldn’t run without. So the simple answer is for every action that we do and every thought that we have, there is a reaction somewhere in the universe. Remember this is the religion and philosophical section, not the science topic page so I will briefly touch on just what is necessary for you to understand the outline of what I believe.

Lets say for example you are a father of a world-class leader. Your decision to marry a specific wife produced the son who becomes the world leader. Lets say this leader was Hitler. Hitler changed the world by prompting the development of the atomic bomb. Which vaporized a couple of hundred thousand people. This is one way that your actions change events and therefore everything that the events existed in such, as space-time. But just reading this post is enough to produce change in the universe! Chaos and other events, including macro (normal sized) and quantum events, including entanglement, are involved here.

Also, when a self-aware observer measures a quantum event he inevitability changes events that affect the future and destiny of the particle etc being observed, i.e. by causing the wave function to collapse.

So now, just a conicious thought and the measurement alone effected mass and matter. (And I believe that this is a real effect and happens in the macro world also).

So, this event of looking and/or measurement by a self-aware observer causes in and by itself instant change (faster than light) on matter. This change can be local or across the universe billions of light years distant, it still happens instantly, faster than light exchange of

The thought that preceded the measurement caused the observer to act or measue and complete the exp, which allowed the faster than light information exchange. And this faster than light process may could have time traveled and was the prompt for the cause and effect of the quantum measurement, AND the thought was already there for writing the script for future events.

Still with me? I’m not very good at explaining this difficult subject.


We are the care takers, and the observers in this frame of reference we call the universe and god is the observer, caretaker of souls, and lord of all universe(s) (there is over one billion a large finite number but not infinite) and what was before this universe.

mb

[belverron]

I am somewhat familiar with quantum theory. How does it apply when that which changes is not being observed by the changer? Why is the change instant? If you were applying the Butterfly Effect I could more easily understand.

[MerlinsByte]

Merlin - Do you ever tire of applying quantun physics and conmis crap to totally irrelevant topics?

Nah, nooooooo,never! I don't sweat the small stuff, and you shouldn't either, my dude .Revelance is subjective, especially in this topic.So for me there is relevance between quntam/chaos/superstring/multiuniverse/EMc2/M theroy ,Branes and God than you are ever libel to have the pleasure to know, but consider yourself enlightened by my gracious hand.

My entire world does not spin around my lottery ticket theorys/ hypoth/ ideas! I feel that anything is better than most of the fairy tales and myths floating around today, and I am as intellegent as the avg. lab rat, I can think without needing someone to hold my gonads, but you ! are you are a usual suspect now in drag, I mean in costume that I once considered a nice person? Now changed with a veiled venomous, christian hating or religion hating or God hating agenda?

If so did you read you disclaimer? Damn! lost another one to the usual suspects...

mb

[MerlinsByte]

am somewhat familiar with quantum theory. How does it apply when that which changes is not being observed by the changer? Why is the change instant? If you were applying the Butterfly Effect I could more easily understand.

Merlin…The butterfly effect was borne of chaos theory. If I we are on the same page, the QM events in a closed reference frame or system (such as an dual slit (photon) experiment)the photon is said to be in a state of superposition. ie neither a wave or particle but an "neither or state"

But for real world ordinary sized events, and concering your query, the easiest way to envision it is to think of nothing changing until you make conicious decision, in other words the universe runs normally and by the rules and destiny that your last conscious decision or act caused.

Did I answer your question?

[Agent007]

It all comes down to belief. I believe God presibed the code by which sins are determined, and distributes punishment for those humans who sin. He may do so through supernatural forces or through other humans with a court system or other means. Nonetheless, we sin, and are eventually punished. Furthermore, I believe that we can be forgiven for our sins, and that we can be redeemed from God's wrath. Since we have souls, we can sin, and the souls get the punishment; that is, an unrepenting sinner's soul may go to hell, while the soul of a righteous man, according to God's absolute code, may go to heaven. Entities such as animals do not have souls and thus do not sin; they neither go to heaven nor hell. (At least this is what I think is true according to my religious dogma--I may have to check.) Otherwise, I am not truly sure what you are asking.

[randall patrick]

True evil it seems does not exist in our temporal universe. By true evil I imply spiritual evil that has a destructive agenda to destroy gods creation, some may entitle this spirit evil the devil Satan etc. While it evil exists as ethereal force and is dangerous it may not manifest completely in our universe, but this will change in the future. Mental illness, sub par brain functioning and greed is the cause for all other evil.


rp:

True evil, eh?

Okay, suppose you are God and design the human body so that fully 80% of all conceptions end in spontaneous abortions. Is that evil?

Suppose you are God and design the human body such that a baby can come into world afflicted with any of 3000+ congenital/genetic disorders. Is that evil?

Suppose you are God and design planet earth with tectonic plates that slip and slide resulting in things like, say, the recent South Asian tsunami. Is that evil?

Suppose you are God and sat back and did nothing while over 680,000,000 children aged 5 years and younger died in agony from starvation in just the 20th century alone. Is that evil?

And how can mere mortals be said to be "sinful" or "evil" when, if God is omniscient, there can be no human autonomy or free will because everything we think and feel and do can only be an inherent manifestation of God?

rp

[MerlinsByte]

By merlin...True evil it seems does not exist in our temporal universe. By true evil I imply spiritual evil that has a destructive agenda to destroy gods creation, some may entitle this spirit evil the devil Satan etc. While it evil exists as ethereal force and is dangerous it may not manifest completely in our universe, but this will change in the future. Mental illness, sub par brain functioning and greed is the cause for all other evil.

"true evil eh? WHY DOES GOD ALLOW...."

Merlin writes...Good points and questions. As I answer these please remember that I am what best can be described as an open theist Christian (actually there is no label that accurately describes my religion or world view), But I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and that is the main artery that I need for my religious life to survive.

Okay, suppose you are God and design the human body so that fully 80% of all conceptions end in spontaneous abortions. Is that evil?

(one)....MERLIN...This is a common line of reasoning and it perplexes many. I have a unique theory for this but its too long to post here so I will give you the very short answer. I feel for gods universe to bring fruit (to allow man to acheive god status) we have no choice but to follow the natural law that run this universe. (with minor adjustments in the dim past and near future).

Suppose you are God and design the human body such that a baby can come into world afflicted with any of 3000+ congenital/genetic disorders. Is that evil?

MERLIN WRITES...No. see above.

Suppose you are God and design planet earth with tectonic plates that slip and slide resulting in things like, say, the recent South Asian tsunami. Is that evil?

MERLIN WRITES...(2) again this is the short and easy answer, No, because the quakes, and other acts of god, are the only way that the MATURAL world CAN work. If you want the new universe, you must hang around until our lord changes it. This is prophesied to happen after the Jesus displaces the antichrist or the one world leader.This will happen as a new physics and natural law comes into effect in the future

Suppose you are God and sat back and did nothing while over 680,000,000 children aged 5 years and younger died in agony from starvation in just the 20th century alone. Is that evil?

MERLIN...This is an example of mans nature and for the natural world to exist as natural it is an event by mans own hand, not gods.

And how can mere mortals be said to be "sinful" or "evil" when, if God is omniscient, there can be no human autonomy or free will because everything we think and feel and do can only be an inherent manifestation of God?

God isn't perfect in your Universe, for one reason is that you aren't perfect nor is anyone. You are like a computer running a bad program, so our perception of reality is skewered and wrong. God is omnipresent in the complete universes and creations which includes more than your or my universe.


mb