Proof of God!

[Cephus]

Quote by: SNPete I suspect that you are an athiest and that's OK. But for the sake of discussion, what if it turns out that God is real and there is a life after death? I say this from the Christian perspective.

Fine. And what if Allah or Vishnu or Bobo the Tree God turn out to be real and they send you to their version of hell for being a Christian. I don't see a lot of Christians dealing with that possibility, do you?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Cephus Fine. And what if Allah or Vishnu or Bobo the Tree God turn out to be real and they send you to their version of hell for being a Christian. I don't see a lot of Christians dealing with that possibility, do you?

Of course they don't. That would be honest.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Quote by: MerlinsByte What we believe has everything to do with reality. In open theism Christianity, which its obvious that you confuse with traditional Christianity, for God to show itself would be to render its reason to be moot.

Merlin this is your finest specimen of gibberish to date.

Starboy

[Saladin]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Merlin writes..What we believe has everything to do with reality. In open theism Christianity, which its obvious that you confuse with traditional Christianity, for God to show itself would be to render its reason to be moot.

Reality is not a belief. You can believe in the concept of reality, but since reality is defined by absolute truths which human beings are incapable of producing, you cannot equate your beliefs to reality.

[Saladin]

Quote by: Prometheus I guess you can feel that way if you want. That's your right as a human being, but yet agian, you are dismissing good evidance and theory, for another theory, maybe equally good, but without any evidance. Lets look at the two camps trying to describe the creation of the universe: Creationists: We know god did it. We don't care how. End of debate. End of intellegent investigation. Scientists: We don't know how, but we have some good ideas. We will work hard, with logic, education and intellegance to try and figure it out. I'm going to go with the people who awknowledge their lack of information, but honestly look to fill in what they don't know.

Science and religion are far more alike than most people think. Both have the capacity for being inflexible - most scientists are no more willing to admit their own fallibility than an Alabama minister is to accept the theory of evolution. Both are also equally ineffective in providing real answers. Religion oftentimes just doesn't bother. I think many religions are far closer to answering the question of the universe than science ever will be, but that some lose sight of the simplicity of their idea.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Cephus Fine. And what if Allah or Vishnu or Bobo the Tree God turn out to be real and they send you to their version of hell for being a Christian. I don't see a lot of Christians dealing with that possibility, do you?

Sigh.

I guess some day there will be an atheist who will give me a straight answer to a simple question regarding God.

OK, I will show you how it is done:

Question: And what if Allah or Vishnu or Bobo the Tree God turn out to be real and they send you to their version of hell for being a Christian.

Answer: I would be surprised and shocked. I would also be really sorry that I did not explore the possibility, with an open mind, that these three gods could be real.

See that wasn't so hard and it even makes me look open minded! ;-)


Quote: I don't see a lot of Christians dealing with that possibility, do you?

BTW most Christians have dealt with those types of possibilities and have chosen Christ.

[Athena]

Quote by: SNPete With all due respect, your question is odd. If God does exist it matters a whole lot. That is like saying what does it matter if fire can or can not burn me. You should try to figure out if something exists, before you say it doesn't matter.

ah, what is going to change if a God exist or does not exist? Are you perhaps assuming what God is? Do you want to tell us what God is and how you know that to be so?

[Saladin]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Merlin writes...Well than we can agree that we disagree, which isn't so bad. You are an intelligent fellow and I respect your beliefs. I feel science does ask that you have faith in their conclusions, so much faith as not to question the large science powers that be. With so many mistakes in their history and so much riding on the current theory of the day, (careers, peer pressure, etc.) it seems that science should embrace any idea no matter how weird or unseemly they may appear at the onset. Remember many weird theories ridiculed by the scientific community to the point or ruining the private and professional lives of the originators were put forth with very little if any empirical evidence, but now accepted as fact.

Science doesn't ask for faith in its conclusions, it demands it. Scientists have a set of concrete premises and absolutely no tolerance for any discussion that extends beyond them. Hell, the other week I had an argument with some big-shot scientist who claimed that he could prove the need for a God. The guy didn't even present his scientific "fact" as fair game before putting it into the discussion, he just immediately tossed it out onto the field like it was the only ball out there and once I questioned it, he promptly dismissed my arguments as "absurd" (exactly the kind of word I'd expect from any other bigot getting his logic shredded like a bad test score). Yeah, real, open-mnded.

[Athena]

Quote by: Saladin Reality is not a belief. You can believe in the concept of reality, but since reality is defined by absolute truths which human beings are incapable of producing, you cannot equate your beliefs to reality.

Who says reality is absolute truth? We only have our perspections and our ability to percieve reality is very limited. I think it is nonsense to think reality is absolute truth and that anyone could know absolute truth. Those who think they know absolute truth are absolutely deluded and absolutely dangerous.

I am not denying that in reality there are those who say reality is absolute truth, and believe they can know absolute truth. I am saying these are deluded and dangerous people.

[Saladin]

Quote by: Athena Who says reality is absolute truth?

If you accept the absolute definition of reality (something that is real and not imagined), then it MUST be absolute and true. Perception has no bearing on the matter - that was my point.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Athena ah, what is going to change if a God exist or does not exist? Are you perhaps assuming what God is? Do you want to tell us what God is and how you know that to be so?

Since here we are, alive and the earth is spinning on it’s axis regardless of what we believe, I would say the biggest difference as to whether there is a God has to do when you die. I will focus my answer on that one point alone for now.

If there is a God, the atheist is going to be surprised and very sorry.

If there is no God, the Christian will be surprised, but no worse off than anyone else.

For the Pagan, he or she better hope their god is more powerful that the God of the Bible.

……………….
I base my knowledge of God on the Bible, personal experience and other people’s personal experience and writings. Answered prayer is a good example.

What God is? I am going for a bike ride before it gets dark, so here is the short version: Get a Bible and read: Psalm 19, Psalm 23, Isaiah chapters 44 through 47. I think these passages will be a good place to start.

The sunshine and local trails are calling me! Enjoy and tell me what you think! Back later.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete BTW most Christians have dealt with those types of possibilities and have chosen Christ.

What criterion do Christian have for choosing Christ that do not exist for Choosing Allah?

Starboy

[Cephus]

Quote by: SNPete Question: And what if Allah or Vishnu or Bobo the Tree God turn out to be real and they send you to their version of hell for being a Christian. Answer: I would be surprised and shocked. I would also be really sorry that I did not explore the possibility, with an open mind, that these three gods could be real.

But you've already shown that you haven't explored any other possibilities. All the "surprise and shock" won't keep you from hell. Might as well start actively exploring these possibilities now if your sould means a damn to you.

See that wasn't so hard and it even makes me look open minded! ;-)

But of course, since I spent 17 years of my life as a Christian, I have explored your 'possibility' and find it to be... rather implausible. I suspect I know more about Christianity than the vast majority of Christians though, as I've found in every single debate I've engaged in in the past several decades.

BTW most Christians have dealt with those types of possibilities and have chosen Christ.

They have? So most Christians have seriously studied other religions? Hell, most Christians haven't even studied Christianity!

[SNPete]

Quote by: Starboy What criterion do Christian have for choosing Christ that do not exist for Choosing Allah? Starboy

Well, Allah is that name for God that Muslims use. I believe that they regard Allah as being the same deity that the Bible calls God.

The New Testament is the primary source of information about Christ. An interested person can read about Christ in the Bible and talk to a Christian or two. If it all makes sense or seems right, then a person may decide to become a Christian. For the sake of space and time I would suggest that you read the book of John in the Bible for more information about Christ.

I suppose it works the same for Islam. The Koran is the primary source for information about Allah. Perhaps some of our Muslim friends could give more details about this.

In some cases people will make a decision for a religion without going any further, because the particular religion makes sense or feels very right/true. Other folks will research a number of different religions and then make a decision.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Cephus But you've already shown that you haven't explored any other possibilities. All the "surprise and shock" won't keep you from hell. Might as well start actively exploring these possibilities now if your sould means a damn to you. But of course, since I spent 17 years of my life as a Christian, I have explored your 'possibility' and find it to be... rather implausible. I suspect I know more about Christianity than the vast majority of Christians though, as I've found in every single debate I've engaged in in the past several decades. They have? So most Christians have seriously studied other religions? Hell, most Christians haven't even studied Christianity!

Actually I have studied all the major religions of the world, including New Age and Paganism. You are one person, who is entitled to your beliefs and I respect that.

I want to point out that there are about 1.5 billion Christians who disagree with you. Also, by now you ought to realize that debate rarely changes a person's view on religion. What changes a person's view is personal experience along with a mind that is interested in religious matters.

I happen to enjoy the debate and I am aware there are many people who read these posts that have a searching mind. To the people who read our posts I invite them to read and decide!

[Cephus]

You're playing the Pascal's Wager game, so let's show you why it fails miserably.

Quote by: SNPete If there is a God, the atheist is going to be surprised and very sorry.

You are assuming that there is only one god and that it operates as you believe it does. For all you know, if the Christian God exists, it might not be anything like you assume it to be. It might send all the hypocritical, pain in the ass Christians straight to hell for being such rotten stewards of the faith.

If there is no God, the Christian will be surprised, but no worse off than anyone else.

No, that assumes that there are no god(s) of any kind. If another, non-Christian god exists, the Christian stands to be in quite a worse spot than the atheist since they actively followed the opposition and caused people to fall away from the one true god.

Even if it happens that there are no gods of any kind, the Christian has still given up their time, money and intellectual integrity worshipping a fantasy figure. They are certainly worse off than anyone who followed reality.

For the Pagan, he or she better hope their god is more powerful that the God of the Bible.

Since it's likely that *NO* gods exist at all, that's pretty pointless. Besides, who knows? Maybe Zeus can kick God's ass?

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete In some cases people will make a decision for a religion without going any further, because the particular religion makes sense or feels very right/true. Other folks will research a number of different religions and then make a decision.

Okay. So in your case why the bible and not the qur'an?

Starboy

[Cephus]

Quote by: SNPete Actually I have studied all the major religions of the world, including New Age and Paganism. You are one person, who is entitled to your beliefs and I respect that.

Studied them how? Studied them to find out of they were wrong, or studied them to prove that your current beliefs are right?

I want to point out that there are about 1.5 billion Christians who disagree with you. Also, by now you ought to realize that debate rarely changes a person's view on religion. What changes a person's view is personal experience along with a mind that is interested in religious matters.

And I'll point out that there are about 4.5 billion non-Christians who disagree with you. The fact that religious views do not change with debate goes to prove that religious views are irrational and illogical on their very face. Nobody chooses a religion because they came to that conclusion after studying the facts. It's an emotional response, just like a child's belief in Santa Claus is an emotional response. People get to feel good because of their religion, that's why they hold it. Whether or not it's right or wrong is irrelevant to the believer, it's the emotional high they get that matters. Try arguing with a child that Santa Claus isn't real. Present every logical or rational argument you can. It won't make a difference because on Christmas morning, those presents are still under the tree and that's all that matters.

Religion is the same thing, it's Santa Claus for adults.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Starboy Okay. So in your case why the bible and not the qur'an? Starboy

Thank you for asking.

The short version. The Bible and Jesus struck me as being true. I respect the Koran, but it was the Bible that really spoke to me. I prayed about the matter and I got a strong feeling that the Bible was true and Jesus is for me.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete Thank you for asking. The short version. The Bible and Jesus struck me as being true. I respect the Koran, but it was the Bible that really spoke to me. I prayed about the matter and I got a strong feeling that the Bible was true and Jesus is for me.

Could it be possible that you just didn't pray enough? That if you had prayed enough then you would have chosen the qur'an. How long did you actually pray on the qur'an vs. the bible. Did you even give it a fair shake. What if you exposed yourself to the qur'an for as long a time as you have been exposed to the bible? Are you even willing to give it a try. From your point of view the stakes are very high. It would be a difference between an eternity in heaven vs. an etermity in hell. As a matter of fact if the Jesus mission was a failure wouldn't it be logical that god would send another messenger to get it right? Wouldn't the most recent religion be the most up to date and therefore most accurate?

Starboy