Proof of God!

[Prometheus]

I feel the proofs of God is as good as any mish mash that science can come up with for the creation of the universe

I guess you can feel that way if you want. That's your right as a human being, but yet agian, you are dismissing good evidance and theory, for another theory, maybe equally good, but without any evidance.

Lets look at the two camps trying to describe the creation of the universe:

Creationists: We know god did it. We don't care how. End of debate. End of intellegent investigation.

Scientists: We don't know how, but we have some good ideas. We will work hard, with logic, education and intellegance to try and figure it out.


I'm going to go with the people who awknowledge their lack of information, but honestly look to fill in what they don't know.

[MerlinsByte]

BY PROMETHEUS...I'm going to go with the people who awknowledge their lack of information, but honestly look to fill in what they don't know.

Merlin...Well if your assumptions od creationist beliefs were correct (they aren't) it might go more like this

Creationist: The universe was created from chaos by God at the start of what we call space time. Gods face and his form is unknowable and therefore may not be revealed in the near future.

Scientists: We can trace the physical universe back to the big bang, however anything before that will require a NEW (read non existent) physics because all known physics break down at the singularity of a black hole or at the instant or before the "big bang" (which is another singularity I would assume, perhaps wrongly because I am at odds yet again with some scinentists of the piltdown man mind frame, but I digress,)

I say that these two world veiws are saying the same thing . Both take faith, and both are religious beleifs. However, one veiw doesnt have that nasty god word. I'll take the god version thank you.


mb

[Prometheus]

The Wizard I say that these two world veiws are saying the same thing . Both take faith, and both are religious beleifs. However, one veiw doesnt have that nasty god word.

I don't agree with the charactarization of science as a religon. True, just like religion, it seeks to answer seeming unanswerable questions, but science does not ask for belief. It only askes for acceptance of the validity of what can be statistically demonstrated. Science awknowledges it's shortcoming and tries to overcome them, Religion in general answers it uncompletely and stagnates at that point. Religion does not seek to gain more answers - it just spits back the same old answers over and over again.

[JamesMcBride]

Quote by: Gorgo http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I) (1) I define God to be X. (2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist. (3) Therefore, God exists.

Lol. I concieve X to be a flying a hamburger with banana's for lips and the feet of a duck and wings of an albatross. Onotologically it therefore exists! WOOO!

[Prometheus]

Whoah - you make it look so easy! (gasp of awe)

I want one for a pet.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus That initial kernal of faith does have to be based on logic.

And what logic would that be?

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

By prometheus... don't agree with the charactarization of science as a religon. True, just like religion, it seeks to answer seeming unanswerable questions, but science does not ask for belief.

Merlin writes...Well than we can agree that we disagree, which isn't so bad. You are an intelligent fellow and I respect your beliefs.

I feel science does ask that you have faith in their conclusions, so much faith as not to question the large science powers that be. With so many mistakes in their history and so much riding on the current theory of the day, (careers, peer pressure, etc.) it seems that science should embrace any idea no matter how weird or unseemly they may appear at the onset. Remember many weird theories ridiculed by the scientific community to the point or ruining the private and professional lives of the originators were put forth with very little if any empirical evidence, but now accepted as fact.

What do the scientists and their congregation has to say about that, were sorry? That's about as satisfying as a death penalty conviction reversal after the murderous state has already electro fried the poor sap.

No thanks, Ill be suspicious today and wont be anyone's fool except perhaps my own, (pun intended) that I can take.And no one can ruin my prof. life as I am selfemployed , well 80% self employed....

mb

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Starboy And what logic would that be? Starboy

Did you finish the bloody post (#19)? Though you may disagree with my point, I clearly answered that question.

[Prometheus]

Whizened Wizard: I feel science does ask that you have faith in their conclusions, so much faith as not to question the large science powers that be.

Scientists invite questions. The reason no serious scientists will listen to your questions (or those of most morons) is because you have to have knowledge on the topic before your question is meaningfull. I little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You learn one little fact and all of the sudden you are an expert on a crusade. Leave the science to the big boys.

[belverron]

The only thing sadder than people trying to prove their religion are the others who think those people should have to.

[MerlinsByte]

Scientists invite questions. The reason no serious scientists will listen to your questions (or those of most morons) is because you have to have knowledge on the topic before your question is meaningfull. I little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You learn one little fact and all of the sudden you are an expert on a crusade. Leave the science to the big boys.

the Whizened Wizard, Merlin the great, wearily replies to the naive promboy...sigh...
au contrare Prommey ! Scientists invite questions only from a scripted agenda. I could answer the easy ones that they struggle with. They have no answers for the difficult ones and it seems that they wont in the foreseeable future.


I happen to Admire pure scientific research and the scientific method. It seems that the usual suspects (you as well are being sucked into their anal retentive pack) thinks that they know me so well as to be able to (mis) quote me. Or indicate that they know what my beliefs are without asking me. Ah Ha! At last! proof of ESP!

ESP runs rampant in the usual suspects! Dang! Well, do yourself a favor. Use your newly discovered metaphysical powers to develop in yourself a courageous critical thinking real man attidude, and maybe give your self a big dose of the elixir (in the brown jug marked xxx how to think for yourself , NO FEAR ) and free yourself from needy pack mentality that requires someone hold your hand and spoon feed you all the mainline scientific numbing that you can hold.

As it is now you are on the way to OD(ing) on the bad shit that these cowards and fearful jerks seem to thrive on. If you contuniue on this path to ruin, the result will insure that you remain ignorant to the real world forever.Comfy numb and dumb, and submissive, just what the world needs, more yes men.

mb





I

[Prometheus]

Quote by: belverron The only thing sadder than people trying to prove their religion are the others who think those people should have to.

Well said. Maybe you should have a chat with Starboy on that one...

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus Did you finish the bloody post (#19)? Though you may disagree with my point, I clearly answered that question.

I did. That is why I thought your statement that your "kernel of faith" was based on logic to be conflicted if not out and out contradictory. Make up your mind, either there is some rational basis for faith or there is not.

Starboy

[Athena]

Does it matter if a God exist or not? What seems more important to our daily experience of reality is what we hold true of God and of being human. Here is the most difficult disagreements that torment us.

[SNPete]

Quote by: Athena Does it matter if a God exist or not?

With all due respect, your question is odd. If God does exist it matters a whole lot. That is like saying what does it matter if fire can or can not burn me. You should try to figure out if something exists, before you say it doesn't matter.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete With all due respect, your question is odd. If God does exist it matters a whole lot. That is like saying what does it matter if fire can or can not burn me. You should try to figure out if something exists, before you say it doesn't matter.

Athena can speak for h(is/er)self, but what (s)he may be trying to say is that there is nothing that can be explained with god that cannot be explained without god just as well or better.

Starboy

[SNPete]

Quote by: Starboy Athena can speak for h(is/er)self, but what (s)he may be trying to say is that there is nothing that can be explained with god that cannot be explained without god just as well or better. Starboy

Yes, but what we believe has no bearing on reality. Her statement that it doesn't matter if God exists is kind of foolish. The question, does God exist, is one of the most important questions asked by philosophers and regular guys throught the ages.

[Starboy]

Quote by: SNPete Yes, but what we believe has no bearing on reality. Her statement that it doesn't matter if God exists is kind of foolish. The question, does God exist, is one of the most important questions asked by philosophers and regular guys throught the ages.

That was the point. What we believe has no bearing on reality. Many have wanted god, have argued for god, prayed for god, begged for god, tried to prove god, killed for god, lied for god, proselytized for god and on and on and on. I look around and all I see is men advocating god but no god.

Starboy

[SNPete]

Quote by: Starboy That was the point. What we believe has no bearing on reality. Many have wanted god, have argued for god, prayed for god, begged for god, tried to prove god, killed for god, lied for god, proselytized for god and on and on and on. I look around and all I see is men advocating god but no god. Starboy

I suspect that you are an athiest and that's OK. But for the sake of discussion, what if it turns out that God is real and there is a life after death? I say this from the Christian perspective.

[MerlinsByte]

That was the point. What we believe has no bearing on reality. Many have wanted god, have argued for god, prayed for god, begged for god, tried to prove god, killed for god, lied for god, proselytized for god and on and on and on. I look around and all I see is men advocating god but no god

.


Merlin writes..What we believe has everything to do with reality. In open theism Christianity, which its obvious that you confuse with traditional Christianity, for God to show itself would be to render its reason to be moot.

Those that have prayed for God are children of God, that statement proves nothing, those that have killed for God are ignorant psychopaths that perverted gods word into something its not, those who proselytized for God were applying their faith to their daily lives. Your eyes are closed by your denial and your mind numbed by your own hand. When I look around I see God in the working of nature and in the twinkle of each star. I feel God in the wind, when I look into my wife's eyes I see God in her love for me. I see God when my basset hound wags his tail, or the sunrise. God is everywhere If you just look.

I would be happy and consider it a privilege, and an honor to help you starboy , to at least try a new tack with God, I know in the past Ive lost my temper and took Satan's liberties with you. I see as well as hear god, and when it come to you (and a couple of others here at volconvo) the "voice" of god tells me that I am wrong in my treatment of you! So, well I am working on it!

and I pray every morning for forgiveness, because (my) God does not like or condone negativity or pain (which is sin) in life, in spirit, or inflicted on others for any reason.

mb