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chicagoastronomer · Feb 13, 2004, 04:58 am

Man is capable of great and beautiful things, but that is not the norm. It is often more of destruction, murder and retarded behavior.

There is a theory that mankind was "manufactured" by beings from another world, as is written in many ancient texts, (Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Mayan etc...), as grunt labor. Perhaps so, it is as good an explanation of man's creation than any other one, and the reason why we always resort to primitive closed fist behavior.

TheColdTruth · Feb 13, 2004, 05:37 am

The reason man always tends to do bad is that basic decision of the fundamental difference between good and evil. The chouice between truth and lies. The truth to make oneself willfully ignorant, or to see what is, and deal with the fact it's tough. Most silly humans perfer to close their eyes and think that if they keep them shut ahrd enough reality will change to be easier and there will be an afterlife. This simply is not so. The root of depravity in humankind is the fact that most people choose to believe that ignorance is bliss, whereas in reality it simply isn't.

leo · Feb 13, 2004, 10:12 am

I don't know where you live, but I see lots of great things, and very little murder and destruction. Sure people are stupid and do stupid things, but we aren't born philosophers, it takes teaching, work, and direction. Mankind is young. The only widespread philosophical writing are ancient religious texts. People don't know the answers, and are easily led around like sheep by those who offer answers that are appealling. Those enlightened individuals who want to make a difference will offer their wisdom and advice in hopes to educate the world on how life works. Hopefully we can avoid killing ourselves off in the meantime. =)

Moreleth · Feb 13, 2004, 10:47 am

Humans exaggerate our importance to a pretty vast degree- both in the face of evolution and its products, as well as in the face of the universe as a whole (evolution). Even to attempt to quantify our creations and destructions as being "beautiful" or "horrible" is, in my opinion, taking a conceptual leap.

If you look at our species from the perspective of orbit at any distance (geo, the moon, other planets, outside the solar system ... galaxy, magellanic cluster, and on and on - the importance of humans and our strifes and struggles becomes in my opinion a lot clearer.

Consider trying to define the good and evil deeds of swarming ants around an anthill, although in our case we must give the ants significantly more sophisticated software routines. We run around, smash, take, make up stories, fantasize, all the while consuming resources (on a cellular level, organ level, organism level, family level, tribe, nation, kingdom, cultural, and ecosystem level). Different resource gathering machines gather resources in order to keep themselves alive and gather more resources. All the while, different approaches for resource control are naturally experimented with. Some of these approaches include altruism, deception, nation building, cliques, politics, economies, and cultural ideologies.

In my opinion, each of these different resource control methods is equally valuable. They are part of a greater evolutionary mechanism to create more sophisticated routines for building interactive life forms and giving those life forms more pavlovian-type influence over their surroundings. Some work, some do not. Some work for individuals while not working for societies, and so on and so forth.

In this way I do not think of man as a pimple on the ass of the universe - nor a shining light, or any other metaphor that gives us any more influence than we have. I think of man as a big collection of organized hydrogen competing for the right to control more hydrogen within self-organizing molecular systems.

commonsense · Feb 13, 2004, 10:47 am

I am a college student. I am astounded that 100% of what is taught here promotes and encourages a belief in international socialism. One example is the exploitaion of black U.S. students by groups promoting free U.S. (black) citizens to unify the continent of Africa under a single socialist government, in which they believe they will hold elite status. These groups, like the Pan-African Student Union, et al, have budgets in the tens of thousands of dollars per semester in this state school alone and are unwittingly subsized by student fees and the U.S. taxpayer.
Another emerging scam appears to be state mandates for teachers of Spanish language that encourage immigration by what appears to be what they hope will be ready-made socialists.
I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the overall effect of everything done here works as well as if it were designed to pervert our founding principles of limited government.
Students must realize that socialism, even in its most seemingly benign forms, like socialized medicine or public works projects, are predicated on force, and sooner or later, the ostensible benificence of government always comes at the point of a bayonet directed at its citizens.
I hope to become a bilingual elementary school teacher, and believe that the renewed teaching of our Founding Fathers' contemporary writings, philosophy, and state constitutions holds the hope for reversing all the corrupt trends we already suffer from, that preserving individual freedoms solve our every social problem, and that the armed agent, police, and bureaucrat (to include "public" teachers) are the enemies of our system, and that what was written 230 years ago, when observed, is the best compromise for peaceful coexistence we can hope for.

GeorgePotter · Feb 13, 2004, 05:06 pm

Man is man. A collection of individuals all differently blessed and cursed. Some commit great horror, some compose great beauty and do fine works. The vast majority does neither, but simply tries it's best to get through life with as little trouble as possible. That does not mean that individuals who are not 'great' (in either the evil or good sense) have no worth. I once wrote an essay called MICROPIECE about what I learned about human nature while working at a truck stop. If anyone would like to read it, I'd be happy to provide a link. :)

antayla · Feb 13, 2004, 11:11 pm

I think human beings are perfect for what they are. Then they will change into something new, and that will be perfect too. Or they will die out, and nature will create another form of sentient life. Perfectly natural. But I figure, if we wanna survive, we will drop this self-loathing bit and start thinking in terms of what we can do rather than what we can't... yet. >:)

shonk · Feb 14, 2004, 12:06 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (chicagoastronomer,)
Man is capable of great and beautiful things, but that is not the norm. It is often more of destruction, murder and retarded behavior.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I wouldn't say that destruction and murder are any more commonplace than the great and the beautiful. In my opinion, if you can't find beauty all around you, you aren't looking very hard. For example, to me, the internet is a thing of beauty. Sure, there are lots of ugly things online, but if you take a broader perspective, this medium is amazingly beautiful. People from every part of the world are interacting with eachother, telling their stories, reading the thoughts and feelings and opinions of people from thousands of miles away. On forums, in chatrooms, through email, on weblogs, journals, personal sites and online communities, people are talking, interacting, learning that people all over the world share the same concerns, have the same hopes and dreams, even that they have the same fears. Instead of listening to the rulers, instead of accepting the notion that people who talk a different language or have a different skin color are different, that they need to be dealt with by diplomats or politicians or corporations or armies, people are talking to those same people that in earlier ages they've been taught to mistrust, to fear or to hate. It's not art, but to me that's a beautiful thing.

The same goes for so many other things in this world. Have you ever really stopped to think about how incredible it is that you have the opportunity to play games, to read, to spend time thinking, to go out and dance until the wee hours of the morning, instead of spending all day, every day doing nothing but trying to find food, running from animals with bigger teeth or stronger muscles, that you can grow old rather than being eaten as soon as you lose a step? That, if you're a woman, you can live to menopause instead of dying during childbirth? To me, those things are all amazing. Maybe they don't mean much in the grand scheme of the universe, but, then again, how much impact do quasars have on your life?

And now, back to my usual, cynical outlook...

GeorgePotter · Feb 14, 2004, 01:14 pm

I agree shonk.

And, in the same spirit, I know of few things more beautiful than a search engine. It's one of the most important inventions of all time, and -- IMO -- the greatest boon to education that the world has ever seen.

shonk · Feb 14, 2004, 02:02 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GeorgePotter,)

And, in the same spirit, I know of few things more beautiful than a search engine. It's one of the most important inventions of all time, and -- IMO -- the greatest boon to education that the world has ever seen.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Here's one that actually makes an attempt to look good: http://www.kartoo.com/

Feb 13, 2004, 04:58 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
chicagoastronomer Sedimentary Rock Posts: 22	Man is capable of great and beautiful things, but that is not the norm. It is often more of destruction, murder and retarded behavior. There is a theory that mankind was "manufactured" by beings from another world, as is written in many ancient texts, (Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Mayan etc...), as grunt labor. Perhaps so, it is as good an explanation of man's creation than any other one, and the reason why we always resort to primitive closed fist behavior. <span style='color:blue'>"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"...</span> Oscar Wilde 1854-1900

Feb 13, 2004, 05:37 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
TheColdTruth Alive Location: Sandusky, Ohio Posts: 100	The reason man always tends to do bad is that basic decision of the fundamental difference between good and evil. The chouice between truth and lies. The truth to make oneself willfully ignorant, or to see what is, and deal with the fact it's tough. Most silly humans perfer to close their eyes and think that if they keep them shut ahrd enough reality will change to be easier and there will be an afterlife. This simply is not so. The root of depravity in humankind is the fact that most people choose to believe that ignorance is bliss, whereas in reality it simply isn't. If it works, and it's stupid, it's not stupid.

Feb 13, 2004, 10:47 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 333	I am a college student. I am astounded that 100% of what is taught here promotes and encourages a belief in international socialism. One example is the exploitaion of black U.S. students by groups promoting free U.S. (black) citizens to unify the continent of Africa under a single socialist government, in which they believe they will hold elite status. These groups, like the Pan-African Student Union, et al, have budgets in the tens of thousands of dollars per semester in this state school alone and are unwittingly subsized by student fees and the U.S. taxpayer. Another emerging scam appears to be state mandates for teachers of Spanish language that encourage immigration by what appears to be what they hope will be ready-made socialists. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the overall effect of everything done here works as well as if it were designed to pervert our founding principles of limited government. Students must realize that socialism, even in its most seemingly benign forms, like socialized medicine or public works projects, are predicated on force, and sooner or later, the ostensible benificence of government always comes at the point of a bayonet directed at its citizens. I hope to become a bilingual elementary school teacher, and believe that the renewed teaching of our Founding Fathers' contemporary writings, philosophy, and state constitutions holds the hope for reversing all the corrupt trends we already suffer from, that preserving individual freedoms solve our every social problem, and that the armed agent, police, and bureaucrat (to include "public" teachers) are the enemies of our system, and that what was written 230 years ago, when observed, is the best compromise for peaceful coexistence we can hope for. The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

Feb 13, 2004, 11:11 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
antayla Molten Ash Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 56	I think human beings are perfect for what they are. Then they will change into something new, and that will be perfect too. Or they will die out, and nature will create another form of sentient life. Perfectly natural. But I figure, if we wanna survive, we will drop this self-loathing bit and start thinking in terms of what we can do rather than what we can't... yet. >:) Member of the Free State Project. http://www.freestateproject.com

Feb 14, 2004, 12:06 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
shonk Sedimentary Rock Posts: 18	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (chicagoastronomer,) Man is capable of great and beautiful things, but that is not the norm. It is often more of destruction, murder and retarded behavior. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I wouldn't say that destruction and murder are any more commonplace than the great and the beautiful. In my opinion, if you can't find beauty all around you, you aren't looking very hard. For example, to me, the internet is a thing of beauty. Sure, there are lots of ugly things online, but if you take a broader perspective, this medium is amazingly beautiful. People from every part of the world are interacting with eachother, telling their stories, reading the thoughts and feelings and opinions of people from thousands of miles away. On forums, in chatrooms, through email, on weblogs, journals, personal sites and online communities, people are talking, interacting, learning that people all over the world share the same concerns, have the same hopes and dreams, even that they have the same fears. Instead of listening to the rulers, instead of accepting the notion that people who talk a different language or have a different skin color are different, that they need to be dealt with by diplomats or politicians or corporations or armies, people are talking to those same people that in earlier ages they've been taught to mistrust, to fear or to hate. It's not art, but to me that's a beautiful thing. The same goes for so many other things in this world. Have you ever really stopped to think about how incredible it is that you have the opportunity to play games, to read, to spend time thinking, to go out and dance until the wee hours of the morning, instead of spending all day, every day doing nothing but trying to find food, running from animals with bigger teeth or stronger muscles, that you can grow old rather than being eaten as soon as you lose a step? That, if you're a woman, you can live to menopause instead of dying during childbirth? To me, those things are all amazing. Maybe they don't mean much in the grand scheme of the universe, but, then again, how much impact do quasars have on your life? And now, back to my usual, cynical outlook... selling waves instead of making them.

Feb 13, 2004, 10:12 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
leo Sedimentary Rock Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 6	I don't know where you live, but I see lots of great things, and very little murder and destruction. Sure people are stupid and do stupid things, but we aren't born philosophers, it takes teaching, work, and direction. Mankind is young. The only widespread philosophical writing are ancient religious texts. People don't know the answers, and are easily led around like sheep by those who offer answers that are appealling. Those enlightened individuals who want to make a difference will offer their wisdom and advice in hopes to educate the world on how life works. Hopefully we can avoid killing ourselves off in the meantime. =)

Feb 13, 2004, 10:47 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Moreleth Sedimentary Rock Posts: 1	Humans exaggerate our importance to a pretty vast degree- both in the face of evolution and its products, as well as in the face of the universe as a whole (evolution). Even to attempt to quantify our creations and destructions as being "beautiful" or "horrible" is, in my opinion, taking a conceptual leap. If you look at our species from the perspective of orbit at any distance (geo, the moon, other planets, outside the solar system ... galaxy, magellanic cluster, and on and on - the importance of humans and our strifes and struggles becomes in my opinion a lot clearer. Consider trying to define the good and evil deeds of swarming ants around an anthill, although in our case we must give the ants significantly more sophisticated software routines. We run around, smash, take, make up stories, fantasize, all the while consuming resources (on a cellular level, organ level, organism level, family level, tribe, nation, kingdom, cultural, and ecosystem level). Different resource gathering machines gather resources in order to keep themselves alive and gather more resources. All the while, different approaches for resource control are naturally experimented with. Some of these approaches include altruism, deception, nation building, cliques, politics, economies, and cultural ideologies. In my opinion, each of these different resource control methods is equally valuable. They are part of a greater evolutionary mechanism to create more sophisticated routines for building interactive life forms and giving those life forms more pavlovian-type influence over their surroundings. Some work, some do not. Some work for individuals while not working for societies, and so on and so forth. In this way I do not think of man as a pimple on the ass of the universe - nor a shining light, or any other metaphor that gives us any more influence than we have. I think of man as a big collection of organized hydrogen competing for the right to control more hydrogen within self-organizing molecular systems.

Feb 13, 2004, 05:06 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
GeorgePotter Sedimentary Rock Posts: 8	Man is man. A collection of individuals all differently blessed and cursed. Some commit great horror, some compose great beauty and do fine works. The vast majority does neither, but simply tries it's best to get through life with as little trouble as possible. That does not mean that individuals who are not 'great' (in either the evil or good sense) have no worth. I once wrote an essay called MICROPIECE about what I learned about human nature while working at a truck stop. If anyone would like to read it, I'd be happy to provide a link. :)

Feb 14, 2004, 01:14 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
GeorgePotter Sedimentary Rock Posts: 8	I agree shonk. And, in the same spirit, I know of few things more beautiful than a search engine. It's one of the most important inventions of all time, and -- IMO -- the greatest boon to education that the world has ever seen.

Feb 14, 2004, 02:02 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
shonk Sedimentary Rock Posts: 18	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GeorgePotter,) And, in the same spirit, I know of few things more beautiful than a search engine. It's one of the most important inventions of all time, and -- IMO -- the greatest boon to education that the world has ever seen.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Here's one that actually makes an attempt to look good: http://www.kartoo.com/ selling waves instead of making them.