Unselfish acts - Do they exist?

[Prometheus]

One of the most common criticisms in our society is that of greed or selfishness. My proposition is that all beings are continually selfish except in the case of basic insanity, so the accusation of selfishness in pointless.

The argument is different for religious and non-religious people, but it gets to the same point.

Religious:
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Basically all religions that I am aware of include the idea of giving to others - performing unselfish acts. Most faiths require it. These "unselfish" acts would seem to contradict my theory, but lets examine the motives behind these "unselfish" acts. People do unselfish acts because they beleive it is the morally correct thing to do. Religious people care about morals because they are dictated by a higher power. The higher power meets our rewards and punishments based on adhereance to morality. The moteve is selfish, therefore the act is selfish.
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Non-Religious
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It is the basic biological imperitive of all organisms to self-prepetuate and pass on their genes. That is the driving evolutionary force that shapes our bodies and behaviours - surviving to mate. Everything our bodies are made and instinct-driven to do is for that self-serving purpose. A mother self sacraficing for a child is merely defending her genes. Sacraficing for a friend is a basic evolutionary urge to defend traits similar to your own.

Evolution does not allow for the existance of a non-selfish action because it would be selected against.
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[Starboy]

There are some scientists that are exploring altruism. It appears that there is an evolutionary basis to altruism. And another thing concerning evolution, it is the case that nature is long in nail and tooth but all life on the planet has DNA and we all share a great deal of it with most other species. One could argue that evolution is about perpetuating ones DNA but if this is so then every species on the planet has a vested interest in the survival of all life on the planet.

Starboy

[Vee]

so what about unselfish acts for strangers?

I'm sure we know the Good Samaritan story and historically prior to that Samaritans weren't known for their charity.

or acts that community groups do for strangers?

[rhod01]

There are plenty. Like giving money to homeless people on the streets.

[Prometheus]

Why would you give money to homeless people?

If your religion tells you to do it then yo are doing it for your soul.

If you are an atheist, then you are doing it for thewarm fuzzy feeling you get (face it, everyone like helping people out). It makes you feel like a good person and raises your self esteem. The action is not selfless.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus If you are an atheist, then you are doing it for thewarm fuzzy feeling you get (face it, everyone like helping people out). It makes you feel like a good person and raises your self esteem. The action is not selfless.

Because there are some atheists that have thrown their lot in with humanity rather the supernatural. They see all of us as being in this together. So all we have is each other. There is no one else to help us but ourselves.

Starboy

[tusaki]

So, an unselfish act by me would be to give money to a charity or political party I don't support?

[Starboy]

Quote by: tusaki So, an unselfish act by me would be to give money to a charity or political party I don't support?

If you were sure that the money would not benifit you in any way. Of course the way modern politics is conducted that doesn't seem to be the case. It is not as if the parties actually matter anymore.

Starboy

[CallousGiant]

I believe there are no selfless acts. Some acts are more selfish than others, but all in all people are very rarely doing something selflessly. Even raising money for charity in not 100% selfless, neither is giving money to a beggar. However, I still believe people should strive to do good, regardless of how selfish or selfless it is.

[tusaki]

Quote by: Starboy If you were sure that the money would not benifit you in any way. Of course the way modern politics is conducted that doesn't seem to be the case. It is not as if the parties actually matter anymore. Starboy

Ok, so for example, I give money to a fundamentalist islamic terrorist charity. (They probably exist) Could this be a selfless act? I would pay others to come and kill me, as well as giving the government an excuse to increase taxes to defend me.

[tusaki]

Quote by: CallousGiant I believe there are no selfless acts. Some acts are more selfish than others, but all in all people are very rarely doing something selflessly. Even raising money for charity in not 100% selfless, neither is giving money to a beggar. However, I still believe people should strive to do good, regardless of how selfish or selfless it is.

Actually, this is true too:

I believe there are no selflish acts. Some acts are more selfless than others, but all in all people are very rarely doing something selfishly. Even raising money for charity in not 100% selfish, neither is giving money to a beggar. However, I still believe people should strive to do good, regardless of how selfless or selfish it is.

But I agree with you

[CallousGiant]

Yes, all acts have some selfishness and selflessness in them.

[Starboy]

Quote by: tusaki Ok, so for example, I give money to a fundamentalist islamic terrorist charity. (They probably exist) Could this be a selfless act? I would pay others to come and kill me, as well as giving the government an excuse to increase taxes to defend me.

It would have to be a selfless act. As selfless as jumping in front of a buss to push a person out of the way. Even if you knew that the person was on their way to kill you. People perform selfless acts all the time. Why would any sane person go into a burning building to save people they did not know. Yet people do it all the time.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

Even then you would have to have some reason why you would do it. Maybe you would do it just to prove me wrong - but then you have a selfish motive.

I hold that there is only *one* type of selfless act, and it can only be committed by a religious person. That act would be to commit an act that you beleive would send you to hell, for the sake of another person.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus Even then you would have to have some reason why you would do it. Maybe you would do it just to prove me wrong - but then you have a selfish motive.

Hey don't ask me. I have never run into a building to save people I didn't know. But people that done it and when questioned later do not have much of a reason as to why they did it.

I hold that there is only *one* type of selfless act, and it can only be committed by a religious person. That act would be to commit an act that you beleive would send you to hell, for the sake of another person.

Ahhhh I see. Only in a magical world with demons and devils is it possible to be altruistic. I suppose when you click the light switch angels make the light bulb glow.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

I'm not arguing here that this "mystical" world exists. I'm just saying that only in such a world can one be selfless. But it dosen't matter anyway, because no religious leader would ask someone to be selfless in that manner.

I wasn't trying to make a plug for religion there or anything. I usually say what I mean. Don't extrapolate from what I say.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus I'm not arguing here that this "mystical" world exists. I'm just saying that only in such a world can one be selfless. But it dosen't matter anyway, because no religious leader would ask someone to be selfless in that manner. I wasn't trying to make a plug for religion there or anything. I usually say what I mean. Don't extrapolate from what I say.

Funny thing about that. In this day and age scientist do try to understand such behavior. They provide explanations not based on magic. It is interesting that apparently the only way you can understand such things is to retreat to magic.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

In this day and age scientist do try to understand such behavior

The bahavior scientitst are trying to understand is stuff like pulling someone out of a burning building and such. That is not what I was explaining. I claim that those actions are in fact selfish.

What I explained with "magic" is a ridiculously extranious situation where selflessness can exist. In essance I am stil claiming that selflessness does not exist.

[Starboy]

So are you saying that none of those firemen thought that if they died during that act of altruism that they could end up in hell?

Starboy

[Prometheus]

That would probably depend on their individual religious beleifs. Most christians would probably say they went to heaven.

Of course their are all kinds of fun evolutionary explainations as well - kin selection and the like.

The firefighters were also rewarded with to good feeling of fufilling a duty and making good on a promise to protect others.