Unselfish acts - Do they exist?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus That would probably depend on their individual religious beleifs. Most christians would probably say they went to heaven. Of course their are all kinds of fun evolutionary explainations as well - kin selection and the like. The firefighters were also rewarded with to good feeling of fufilling a duty and making good on a promise to protect others.

Wait a second. Have you changed your mind? Are you allowing for the possiblity that there might be a non-magical explanation for altruism?

Starboy

[Prometheus]

OK starboy, enough of the straw man - you're better than that.

The scientific ideas of kis selection and altruism explain *why* apperantly selfless acts are in fact selfish.

I reiterate - I hold that there are no selfless acts past an extranious and ridiculous possibility afforded by a religion. I am not trying to claim by this that religion gives it's followers any enhances ability to be altruistic - no religious person would excercise the ability to be selfless. The exception proves the rule. No sane being, religious or otherwise would be selfless.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus The scientific ideas of kin selection and altruism explain *why* apparently selfless acts are in fact selfish.

That is one scientific explanation. However it doesn't explain the altruism displayed by people who risk their lives for people they do not know. And it is not always the professional first responder that risks their life. Many times it is a bystander. As I have stated before it is an active area of scientific research however I can guarantee that the researchers will not resort to magic to explain it.

I reiterate - I hold that there are no selfless acts past an extraneous and ridiculous possibility afforded by a religion.

Let's be clear here. What you mean is that without magic there is no such thing as altruism. Well my, my. And exactly how do you know this? Did god tell you?

I am not trying to claim by this that religion gives it's followers any enhances ability to be altruistic - no religious person would exercise the ability to be selfless. The exception proves the rule. No sane being, religious or otherwise would be selfless.

It is very interesting that scientists are willing to call certain animal behavior altruistic but that a god advocate that thinks that only magic allows for altruism says that altruism doesn't exist.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

The terms "altruistic" and "selflessness" are not synnomous.

That is why my posts are not making sence to you. Altruism is the scientific explaination for apparently selfless acts. Altruism (at least in the biological sence) explains why these actions are in fact in the evolutionary advantage of the organism.

Altruism is totally independant of any religion or "magic". And anyway, the selflessness does not require "magic" to exist - it just requires a belief.

Becuase you don't beleive that you can go to hell (becuase it dosen't exist), you cannot be selfless. A religious person could be, but none of them ever do, so it's kind of a moot point.

[Starboy]

Let's see what Webster's has to say about those words.

Quote by: Webster's Main Entry: al·tru·ism Pronunciation: 'al-tru-"i-z&m Etymology: French altruisme, from autrui other people, from Old French, oblique case form of autre other, from Latin alter 1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others 2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species - al·tru·ist /-tru-ist/ noun - al·tru·is·tic /"al-tru-'is-tik/ adjective - al·tru·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Quote by: Webster's Main Entry: self·less Pronunciation: 'sel-fl&s Function: adjective : having no concern for self : UNSELFISH - self·less·ly adverb - self·less·ness noun

By those definitions it would appear that altruism is a form of selflessness. That altruism is a kind of selflessness. What you appear to be doing is confusing a religious concept you call "selflessness" with the non-religious concepts of both altruism and selflessness. You are having a hard time separating the magic from reality.

Starboy

[tusaki]

I disagree with the premise that only a religious person can commit selfless acts. For I fail to see how a selfless act which will kill such a person wouldn't get him a ticket straight to heaven.

[Starboy]

Quote by: tusaki I disagree with the premise that only a religious person can commit selfless acts. For I fail to see how a selfless act which will kill such a person wouldn't get him a ticket straight to heaven.

I guess it depends on the religion. And perhaps the person doesn't want to go to heaven. Most of the people I would like to meet according to most Christians are in hell.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

The whole religion person and selfless act thing depends on the religion and the person, but it is only a minor exception to the rule.

Starboy, check this out:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~strone01/altruism.html

This is what biologists/evolutionists mean when they use the term "altruism". Altruism is not in fact selfless. It is closely related to selflessness - selflessness is only a slightly broader catagory. Once all of altruism is shown to be selfish, it leaves nearly nothing left that is selfless.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus The whole religion person and selfless act thing depends on the religion and the person, but it is only a minor exception to the rule. Starboy, check this out: http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~strone01/altruism.html This is what biologists/evolutionists mean when they use the term "altruism". Altruism is not in fact selfless. It is closely related to selflessness - selflessness is only a slightly broader catagory.

Let me see, you are saying that altruism is a kind of selflessness. Gee, that is what I said.

Once all of altruism is shown to be selfish, it leaves nearly nothing left that is selfless.

Hey Prometheus!

Did you read much of any of that article like say the conclusion?

Conclusion Altruism is one of the great mysteries of social behavior in animals, as it appears to contradict our understanding of natural selection. Even one hundred years after the birth of Darwinism, scientists are still continuing to debate the causes and effects of altruistic behavior. Whether the mathematical models of group selection, the instinctive qualities of kin selection, or the trusting attributes of reciprocal altruism, are the prime explanations of the development of this behavior is still largely unknown. In the end, it will probably be found that it is the combination of all three possibilities that plays a significant role in the natural world.

This mirrors my understanding of the state of the field. What I have read on the subject is pretty much what this article concludes, that at this time the mechanism of altruism is not well known or understood.

Starboy

[castille]

Performing a selfless act (ie. risking your life to save someone) is triggered by chemicals in your brain, giving you pleasure.

That means you are still selfish.

[Vee]

doing something to give u that warm feeling is not selfish

[belverron]

We talked about altruism in my evolution class. After we'd discussed it a few times, the professor pondered aloud putting a question on the final asking for an example of altruism in nature. He said if he couldn't put a hole in our answer in ten seconds we'd get the credit. The entire class was scared and outraged by the very suggestion. We made him drop the notion that very minute.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Vee doing something to give u that warm feeling is not selfish

How does this explain the person who is performing the selfless act for the first time? They have no idea what kind of a feeling it will give them.

Starboy

[JamesMcBride]

What about euthanasia?

[Dadoo]

What about selfish acts?
Are they possible?

Really?

Aw, c'mon now,
Dadoo