A long journey to nowhere

[WhateverItTakes]

You just have to love the religion debate. I think that's why we are all here.

Hello, all. This is my first ever post (as I just found this website today); hopefully it is the first of many posts that will contribute to the myriad of enlightening discussions present on this fabulous website.

I am 26 years old and teach earth science on long island, new york. I received an astronomy/physics degree from a prestigious university and have participated in numerous research studies composed by brilliant Ivy league professors... I consider myself to have a pretty good scientific knowledge base, and I have enjoyed picking through the hundreds of posts on here that pinpoint every possible scientific principle/theory/loophole that either "proves" or "disproves" the evidence that God exists.

Let's throw all that out the window for a second. That is not my purpose on this post. Simply put, I want to focus on the fact that there will be no definitive answer. All other semantics aside, Creationists will always point to the fact that something just can NOT come from nothing. People can say that life began as a primordial soup of subatomic particles; creationists will question where that primordial soup came from. People can say that if the universe is forever expanding, then it will eventually run out of hydrogen and can diagram a scheme in which our universe came from the black hole evaporation of a previous universe; creationists will question where the matter in the previous universe came from, and the one before it, etc, until there's only one original universe. People can say that matter was converted from energy a la Einstein's super-famous E=mc^2 formula; but where did the energy come from? I've even heard theories that include superluminal speeds, in which the laws of physics do not hold, thus we know little about it because we cannot travel at this speed, but where did the first light come from? You get the point.

So, something can't come from nothing.. No one has yet to pose a model that is universally accepted, and I doubt anyone ever will, at least in my lifetime. I think the concept of religion, in many ways, is very rewarding to society in that it teaches us to treat others with respect, love our family.. it provides us with a template as to what is moral and immoral and gives us a sense of belonging in a vast universe that otherwise, due to its expanse, would probably render us insignificant.

So why don't I believe in religion?

I just can't. You can probably tell that I respect anyone who does, but I just find it difficult to accept. If there was only one religion, in which everyone on the planet respected each other, I would be all for it. It would simply be a debate of theism vs. atheism. But that's not the case. By arguing that we are all the children of Jesus Christ, you not only argue against the Seculists and Free thinkers, but the Muslims who praise Allah, the Buddhists who pray to Buddha, even the Jews who acknowledge that Jesus was once a Jew and such do not accept him into their prayers. Some religions embrace bigamy, some tribal cultures do rain dances during droughts. Some people feel so strongly about their religion that they will fly airplanes into a skyscraper to make their point about the "horror" that is western civilization... despite the fact that most religions originate in the same area, and there are many similarities that occur amongst the religions that originated in the Middle East, which religion is the right one? Different ethnicities correllated to different religions - it all just appears to be socially crafted to me. Is the person who believes in multiple deities wrong? Is an atheist wrong? And who are you to decide?

I just can't buy into the idea. I can't see a God. I guess I have a "you gotta see it to believe it" kind of mentality. I can't see air but I know it's there because if I stepped into an air-tight vacuum for long enough I would die. Take away the idea of God and nothing changes for me; I don't die. I maintain the morality of a good citizen despite this belief, and I pride myself on it. I would imagine that if God really wanted me to believe in him, he would find a way to get in touch with me, in a method blatant enough that I could understand what was happening. I'm not going to get into that here, as I'm sure plenty of Creationists will respond to this comment with answers I won't find acceptable. Moving on from that point, despite my atheistic views, I am a good person - I do unto all others as I would like to have done to myself, I donate to charity on a regular basis, I help everyone I possibly can during times of trouble and I educate the youth of America for a living - and not just in science, mind you, but I consistently preach the values of respecting oneself, and each other - to think decisions through carefully and ponder how they may affect others, especially family. You can imagine my disappointment and, unfortunately, agitation, when I hear someone tell me that I'm going to Hell for my non-belief in God (it's happened plenty).. I don't criticize others nor do I wish to be criticized, and for that matter it's really no one else's place to tell me what I should believe.

I can talk about science and the philosophies behind why I think people are religious until my fingers fall off from typing too much, but I'm not going to go that route on this post.. I've seen plenty of that in other places on this site. I just want to know, to all of you that think there is a God, why is everyone on the planet so confused as to what is going on? And who is right and who is wrong; and is there EVEN a right and wrong answer?

I look forward to reading your responses. Cheers, for now.
Dave

[tinybear]

I'm in a bit in 'limbo' so far as belief in religion/God is concerned. On the one hand I cannot believe in all the supernatural stuff in the holy books and can't understand how a supposedly all-powerful being can be so cruel at times and exercise such double standards. On the other, I say to myself: if we came from monkeys, where'd the monkeys come from? There has to be a beginning somewhere, right? If a superior being didn't create the universe, who did? I'm still in a quandry. Therefore I still keep an open mind (for now).

[Contrarian]

Quote by: tinybear On the other, I say to myself: if we came from monkeys, where'd the monkeys come from? There has to be a beginning somewhere, right? If a superior being didn't create the universe, who did?

"We came from monkeys" is a bit of a caricature: there is reason to believe that we and they came from a common ancestor, which is not quite the same thing. The problem with superior beings is that one then has to wonder where the superior being came from. If the superior being could always just have existed, then so could the universe (in one of the "closed" models of cosmology).

[Sonart]

Quote by: WhateverItTakes I can talk about science and the philosophies behind why I think people are religious until my fingers fall off from typing too much, but I'm not going to go that route on this post.

Well, you certainly made a good go of it

Welcome to the board, Whatever :) As a devout atheist, I don't really have much to add to your post, but hopefully we'll see you around. Lots of fun here.

Quote by: tinybear There has to be a beginning somewhere, right?

Like what came before the Big Bang. But just because we don't know the answer doesn't mean there isn't one... we just don't know what it is... yet.

Quote by: contrarian The problem with superior beings is that one then has to wonder where the superior being came from.

And what was he doing before we came along?

.

[Starboy]

Quote by: WhateverItTakes You just have to love the religion debate. I think that's why we are all here. Hello, all. This is my first ever post (as I just found this website today); hopefully it is the first of many posts that will contribute to the myriad of enlightening discussions present on this fabulous website.

Welcome to Volconvo!

I am 26 years old and teach earth science on long island, new york. I received an astronomy/physics degree from a prestigious university and have participated in numerous research studies composed by brilliant Ivy league professors... I consider myself to have a pretty good scientific knowledge base, and I have enjoyed picking through the hundreds of posts on here that pinpoint every possible scientific principle/theory/loophole that either "proves" or "disproves" the evidence that God exists.

What grade level?

I think the concept of religion, in many ways, is very rewarding to society in that it teaches us to treat others with respect, love our family.. it provides us with a template as to what is moral and immoral and gives us a sense of belonging in a vast universe that otherwise, due to its expanse, would probably render us insignificant.

It is a claim by the religious that religion is not only a benefit to society but is crucial to society. Maybe it is but I have never seen any good evidence to support that claim. To the contrary there are many examples that show how religion can take society over the abyss. Fact is religion is a business. Religious leaders spend a great deal of time trying to convince their adherents that their religion is crucial to their existence. For the most part they are in the god intermediate business. They sell good old fashion patronage. The god intermediaries instruct their followers on how they can get in good with god. They are essentially selling a contract or a covenant if you will. If you do X then you will get Y. Most of the Christian intermediaries take it to the point of extortion. You do not have the choice of refusing the service because if you do not accept then something unimaginably gruesome and awful will happen to you for eternity. If such a thing was practiced by any other institution in our society they would be facing jail time but because people somehow have been convinced that such practices represent an important service in society that it is a-okay. Another very funny thing about it all is that people can obviously see that the god intermediaries of religions they do not belief in have no contact with god but fail to see that the intermediaries that they have chosen to believe in have no better evidence to support their claims then the ones they reject. It is all so very dishonest.

I just want to know, to all of you that think there is a God, why is everyone on the planet so confused as to what is going on? And who is right and who is wrong; and is there EVEN a right and wrong answer?

I am not a god advocate. As I see it what we have are different groups of god intermediaries and their adherents and then there are a growing number of unattached people that have some belief or confidence in the supernatural but are disaffected by the god intermediaries. For the most part the god intermediaries want their adherents to think that they represent the only way to actually know what god wants and that the other god intermediaries are somewhat or completely wrong. It is the equivalent of every medical doctor in the world telling each of their patients that they are the only person that can save them and that all other doctors are quacks. If the magic is real then all practitioners would acknowledge the magic of others. Only a situation of extreme foolery would be as religion is today.

Starboy

[Prometheus]

I'm glad to see someone who will help keep the arguments rational. Please, pick them apart mercilessly. Or at least let me know when I'm full of it (It happens to the best of us).

I am religious, but like to think that I approach it relatively intellectually, without grasping at silly proofs contrived for those without the wherewithal to apply the central requirement of religion: faith.